Sub-panel in garage dwelling require main

[john1]

Montgomery cty Ohio inspection department require a main be put in the
sub-panel in a garage at a dwelling giving code article 225.30
correct or wrong John1

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Montgomery cty Ohio inspection department require a main be put in the
sub-panel in a garage at a dwelling giving code article 225.30
correct or wrong John1

Well sort of. A detached garage needs a main or six throws to disconnect the structure-- same as a service. You may have an amendment.

225.30 says nothing about a main. 225.33

 

[charlie b]

The panel itself must be protected against overcurrent. So too must the feeder conductors supplying the panel. These can be protected by the same device, and it need not be in the garage. However, as Dennis pointed out, you must be able to disconnect all power to the garage, using a device (or up to six devices) that is (are) located on, near, or in the garage. The easiest way to achieve this is to use a main breaker in the sub panel. But that is not a requirement.

 

[mpd]

providing the panel is still suitable for use as service equipment with 6 breakers

 

[Dilligaf1220]

Dilligaf1220

Dilligaf1220

here in Va. Beach area most citys require a disconnecting breaker in sub-panel.we use a double pole breaker(50 or 100 amp) in a six circuit or better panel and hook feed there.
Jim

 

[fireryan]

I dont think I understand the 6 thrown thing. would someone please explain this to me?

 

[stickboy1375]

I dont think I understand the 6 thrown thing. would someone please explain this to me?

Most cases a main is required anyways.... but check out 230.40 exception #2 and 225.34 (A).

 

[Smart $]

Montgomery cty Ohio inspection department require a main be put in the
sub-panel in a garage at a dwelling giving code article 225.30
correct or wrong John1

Wrong article reference.

Correct references are:

2008 NEC

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section. the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.

Exceptions irrelevant and omitted for brevity

 

[john1]

main in sub-panel at dwelling garage

main in sub-panel at dwelling garage

I thought that had some good people out there that would help me
support my thinking on the code and rule 225 at single family dwelling and a bad electrical inpector / department for enforcing rule 225 on dwelling.
Sometime the NEC is not very clear on what it is saying and you need to add
some words to make it clear, to me rule 225 is a commercial rule and should
not be applied to single family dwelling rules . One person pick up the right issue he stated the article was wrong and he is correct. You need to look at more 225 rules to see requiring a main at each building , rule 225 is a rule use for more then one building on single property. a garage at a single family dwelling is not a second building . 225.36 even state the the rule requiring a main in second building has a exception for a garage at single family home dose not apply. Just a bad inspector abusing his authority in my opinion.

 

[stickboy1375]

to me rule 225 is a commercial rule and should
not be applied to single family dwelling rules .

How did you come up with this conclusion? :roll: And why do people think there is a commercial code book and a residential codebook?

One person pick up the right issue he stated the article was wrong and he is correct. You need to look at more 225 rules to see requiring a main at each building , rule 225 is a rule use for more then one building on single property. a garage at a single family dwelling is not a second building .

It that garage is detached it certainly is a 2nd building, and 225 applies. And IMO, your just plain wrong and the inspector is correct. Have a nice day!

225.36 even state the the rule requiring a main in second building has a exception for a garage at single family home dose not apply. Just a bad inspector abusing his authority in my opinion.

That is only for a set of 3-ways or 4-ways...

 

[celtic]

....to me rule 225 is a commercial rule and should
not be applied to single family dwelling rules...

:-?

How does it apply to only comm. and not resi. ?

2008 NEC
225.1 Scope.
This article covers requirements for outside branch circuits and feeders run on or between buildings, structures, or poles on the premises; and electrical equipment and wiring for the supply of utilization equipment that is located on or attached to the outside of buildings, structures, or poles

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure
225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).
For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Some SFH are larger than some comm. properties.

 

[triplstep]

........I thought that had some good people out there....... Just a bad inspector abusing his authority in my opinion........

Give it a little time, I think the good people will come to your aid.......

In the mean time, article 225 is as important an article to dwelling installations as any other could be. And as previously stated, some ahj's have added further provisions to the nec. In Downers Grove, we too have to protect all subs with a main.

 

[hillbilly]

Montgomery cty Ohio inspection department require a main be put in the
sub-panel in a garage at a dwelling giving code article 225.30
correct or wrong John1

I'll quote a old electrician's saying...I think that it applies.:smile:

"Exit as a feeder, Enter as a service".

Just a opinion
steve

 

[tom baker]

I dont think I understand the 6 thrown thing. would someone please explain this to me?

Disconnecting power for a service or separate building can be done with a single disconnect or up to 6 disconnects (couple of exceptions)
Its frequently called the six throw of the hand rule, someone a long time ago determined the maximum number of disconnects you can turn off in an emergency is 6. For large services, they are frequently made up of many (up to 6) smaller disconnect panels, IE 6 200 amp panels instead of one large 1200 amp disconnect, as its less expensive.

 

[dnem]

Montgomery cty Ohio inspection department require a main be put in the
sub-panel in a garage at a dwelling giving code article 225.30
correct or wrong John1

By referring to Article 225, are you saying that the garage is detached ?

I thought that had some good people out there that would help me
support my thinking on the code and rule 225 at single family dwelling and a bad electrical inpector / department for enforcing rule 225 on dwelling.
Sometime the NEC is not very clear on what it is saying and you need to add
some words to make it clear, to me rule 225 is a commercial rule and should
not be applied to single family dwelling rules .

225 applies to all applications [including residential] unless the section wording specifically states otherwise.

You need to look at more 225 rules to see requiring a main at each building , rule 225 is a rule use for more then one building on single property. a garage at a single family dwelling is not a second building .

So you’re saying that your garage is not a second building ?

225.36 even state the the rule requiring a main in second building has a exception for a garage at single family home dose not apply. Just a bad inspector abusing his authority in my opinion.

So you’re saying that your garage is a second building ?

If the garage is detached from the house, 225 applies and the 1 to 6 disconnect rule is required.
If the garage is attached to the house, 225 does not apply and the 1 to 6 disconnect rule is not required.

Since your wording is a little ambiguous, I need to also ask about the word “main”, “a main be put in the sub-panel”. . The main put in the subpanel would be a breaker which has disconnect abilities and overcurrent abilities. . The disconnect function is what is required by 225. . The overcurrent for the building and the conductors feeding the building can be located in the house panel that feeds the garage.

You may have an amendment.

And as previously stated, some ahj's have added further provisions to the nec.

Not in Montgomery Ohio, there’s not. . There are no local building code deviations from state code allowed by state law. . A local jurisdiction trying to apply a local building code requirement on a project that was received for application for plan review after May 27, 2007 is in violation of state law. . If this is the case, you can ask the Montgomery CBO [Certified Building Official] to approve your installation according to the NEC. . If he refuses, you contact the Ohio Board of Building Standards and they will intervene.

State law for all projects other than 1,2,+3 family residential is 2008NEC. . State law for all projects of 1,2,or3 family residential is 2005NEC. . Switch to 2008NEC for 1,2,+3 family residential starting on 01/01/09 is being decided in November.

David

 

[john1]

John1 sub-panel in garage

John1 sub-panel in garage

David media you are so right house bill 175 thanks for help, you are smart
Hillbilly look at rule 225.36 exception, garage dose not apply to rule 225
Stickboy their are many training manual that have residential, commercial and industrail rule of NEC Ray Mullian has a commercial book for NEC
Tom good job thank for help
Celtic Stallcup electrical design book clearly show how rule 225 is to be used
Triplestemp thank for the good feed back
Dillgraf main at house has 60 amp double protecting wire to garage
Mpd 6 disconnect dose not appy to garage sub-panel 226.36 exception
Charlie no six disconnect rule at a garage apply, not a service to garage
Thanks for the help. you only beat a electrical inspection department with
another electrical inspector in a court of law in my opinion. One with correct
documents win. The OBBS will not help , a inspection department in Ohio requires you to connect gas pipe to
water pip in their city. Compliant to OBBS and they will not help. who going to
help the protect the people in that city ??

 

[roger]

Hillbilly look at rule 225.36 exception, garage dose not apply to rule 225

You're reading the wrong section, and even then, I don't see how you came to your conclusion. See 225.33

Stickboy their are many training manual that have residential, commercial and industrail rule of NEC Ray Mullian has a commercial book for NEC

Stickboy is correct, if you're reading training material that says something different you should probably throw it away.

Mpd 6 disconnect dose not appy to garage sub-panel 226.36 exception

You're still reading and trying to apply the wrong section. See 225.33

Charlie no six disconnect rule at a garage apply, not a service to garage

Charlie is correct, you are wrong. See 225.33

Roger

 

[iwire]

Hillbilly look at rule 225.36 exception, garage dose not apply to rule 225

Yes, there is an exception for 'suitable for service equipment' when snap switches are used.

You can not use 'snap switches' as the disconnecting means for a feeder supplying a sub panel.

Stickboy their are many training manual that have residential, commercial and industrail rule of NEC Ray Mullian has a commercial book for NEC

Stickboy was 100% correct in his post.

Celtic Stallcup electrical design book clearly show how rule 225 is to be used

Yes, I am sure they have some great examples but not every example.

Mpd 6 disconnect dose not appy to garage sub-panel 226.36 exception

That exception can not be used for feeders supplying panels. There are no 'snap switches' rated large enough for that use.

Charlie no six disconnect rule at a garage apply, not a service to garage

The six disconnect rule can apply to feeders supplying separate buildings or structures.


Bottom line the inspector is correct and you have buried your head in the sand.

Part II of 225 applies to ANY detached building or structure at any occupancy

Build a dog house behind a home and run a single 120 volt circuit to run a lamp in it and Part II of 225 applies. (see 225.30)

Install a post light on the front yard and 225 applies. (see 225.32 Exception 3)

By the way 250.32 also applies, you better have a grounding electrode system in any detached building or structure supplied with a feeder.

You came here for help, you have been getting great help from many intelligent electricians, bussinees owners and inspectors, just because it is not what you wanted to hear does not make it wrong.

 

[john1]

no main in garage

no main in garage

O.K. I give up , let stop the talk and do the action. I'm Electrical inspector
you are a electrical inspector we are going to court
I'm going to state you are violating house bill 175 abusing your authority
provide document NEC 2008 page 70-71 225.36 except 225 dose not apply
page 225.38 exception rule dos not apply to garage. I'm also going to provide Stallcup picture on how to apply rule 225 to commercial job. also Ray Mulllin residential wiring book with over 400 Residential code rules that apply to residential wiring no items listing 225 rule and a garge wiring in residential book with 614 pages .
These documents will be provide to the Judge to aid his discision , what are
you going provide to show rule 225 dose apply to residential garage wiriing ??

 

[roger]

O.K. I give up , let stop the talk and do the action. I'm Electrical inspector
you are a electrical inspector we are going to court
I'm going to state you are violating house bill 175 abusing your authority
provide document NEC 2008 page 70-71 225.36 except 225 dose not apply
page 225.38 exception rule dos not apply to garage. I'm also going to provide Stallcup picture on how to apply rule 225 to commercial job. also Ray Mulllin residential wiring book with over 400 Residential code rules that apply to residential wiring no items listing 225 rule and a garge wiring in residential book with 614 pages .
These documents will be provide to the Judge to aid his discision , what are
you going provide to show rule 225 dose apply to residential garage wiriing ??

Well, do what ever you want to do but, the inspector was right.

You can provide all the training material you can carry into the court room, the end of the story will be that they are not adopted code documents.

It seems as though you came here wanting others to side with you and not provide you with the correct answers, so when they provided you with the correct answers and code sections you argue with them, so be it.

Roger