• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

sum of all breakers rule, 2017 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c)

ron

Senior Member
I would guess it is taking a shot at PV installers that they wouldn't do a building load calculation per 220, and they had to come up with some calculation to be sure the busbar was not overloaded.

2017 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) The sum of the ampere ratings of all overcurrent devices on panelboards, both load and supply devices, excluding the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar, shall not exceed the ampacity of the busbar.​

 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would guess it is taking a shot at PV installers that they wouldn't do a building load calculation per 220, and they had to come up with some calculation to be sure the busbar was not overloaded.

2017 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) The sum of the ampere ratings of all overcurrent devices on panelboards, both load and supply devices, excluding the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar, shall not exceed the ampacity of the busbar.​

That is crazy. A 200 amp service could have no more than 10 overcurrent protective device at 20 amps counting a small input from solar?
We all know that most 20 amp circuits, especially in a home are never close to 20 amps loads.

Am I reading that correctly?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That is crazy. A 200 amp service could have no more than 10 overcurrent protective device at 20 amps counting a small input from solar?
We all know that most 20 amp circuits, especially in a home are never close to 20 amps loads.

Am I reading that correctly?
You are, but it is just one of 5 options to protect the panel busbar.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Why is it "both load and supply devices" and not just "load devices"?
Ease of administration: just look at all the breakers and see that it complies. The inspector doesn't have to verify which ones are loads and which ones are supplies. And FWIW, a supply breaker could have a high resistance fault that turns it into a load breaker as far as the busbar loading.

I submitted various additional allowances for 705.12(B) over the past couple code cycles, all rejected. This past time around the CMP response was basically "yeah, you're right that would be safe from overloading the bus, but we don't want to complicate the text. If you want to do that, use the allowance for engineering and get an engineer to certify that it won't overload the bus."

See https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/2023-nec-705-12-b-6-engineering-supervision.2582836/ for discussion of that.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. If your panelboard would comply if you just count the load breakers, then you could certainly take all the supply breakers, pair them with matching load breakers, and then just use a single breaker in the panel for that load/supply pair, using a feeder interconnection to the feeder supplied with that breaker.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I would guess it is taking a shot at PV installers that they wouldn't do a building load calculation per 220, and they had to come up with some calculation to be sure the busbar was not overloaded.

2017 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) The sum of the ampere ratings of all overcurrent devices on panelboards, both load and supply devices, excluding the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar, shall not exceed the ampacity of the busbar.​

One thing about this rule is that the letter and the spirit can be different if there are breakers that do not touch all the busbars. If, for example, you are feeding a three phase AC combiner panel with single phase inverters, an interpretation that makes sense to me is that each busbar can only have breakers landing on it with the summed ratings up to 100% of that of the busbar. I used that interpretation many times when filling combiner panels and never had an inspection fail for it.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
That is crazy. A 200 amp service could have no more than 10 overcurrent protective device at 20 amps counting a small input from solar?
We all know that most 20 amp circuits, especially in a home are never close to 20 amps loads.

Am I reading that correctly?
This rule could be one way to qualify a service panel bus but I don't believe it is commonly if ever used that way. It was added to the NEC in 2011 or 2014 (or thereabouts) to legitimize what we in solar were already doing with PV AC combiner panels.
 
This rule could be one way to qualify a service panel bus but I don't believe it is commonly if ever used that way. It was added to the NEC in 2011 or 2014 (or thereabouts) to legitimize what we in solar were already doing with PV AC combiner panels.
I commonly use it when instead of adding a "PV disconnect" I had another "normal" 230.40 exc #2 or 3 main breaker panel board for the PV (really the same thing as a PV disconnect and combiner panel but just combing into one piece of equipment).
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I commonly use it when instead of adding a "PV disconnect" I had another "normal" 230.40 exc #2 or 3 main breaker panel board for the PV (really the same thing as a PV disconnect and combiner panel but just combing into one piece of equipment).
I guess that works in some jurisdictions but most around here require a separate bladed, labeled, and lockable AC disconnect for a PV interconnection. OCP is not necessary in the disco if the conductors are otherwise protected at the point of interconnection.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
So how do you calculate a 3p 20 amp breaker? Is that 3 breakers?
Physics-wise, it is clear that 2017 NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3) should be applied on a per busbar basis. So in a 3 phase panel, with only 3 pole breakers, you could just add up all the breakers to compare it against the busbar. If you have single pole and double pole breakers as well, you should do the comparison 3 times, once for each busbar, counting up only the breakers on that busbar each time.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Physics-wise, it is clear that 2017 NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3) should be applied on a per busbar basis. So in a 3 phase panel, with only 3 pole breakers, you could just add up all the breakers to compare it against the busbar. If you have single pole and double pole breakers as well, you should do the comparison 3 times, once for each busbar, counting up only the breakers on that busbar each time.

Cheers, Wayne
20A per busbar. A 2P 20A breaker connected to the A and B phases adds 20A only to the A and B busbars.
Then you would use the highest ampacity of the 3 busbars. Got it-- I assumed that, but there was no code citing how it should be done. This way is the most obvious.
 
I guess that works in some jurisdictions but most around here require a separate bladed, labeled, and lockable AC disconnect for a PV interconnection. OCP is not necessary in the disco if the conductors are otherwise protected at the point of interconnection.
I my experience, that is mostly a utility requirement. The two major utilities here in upstate NY have an exception for small residential PV systems and dont require it.
 
Ease of administration: just look at all the breakers and see that it complies. The inspector doesn't have to verify which ones are loads and which ones are supplies. And FWIW, a supply breaker could have a high resistance fault that turns it into a load breaker as far as the busbar loading.

I submitted various additional allowances for 705.12(B) over the past couple code cycles, all rejected. This past time around the CMP response was basically "yeah, you're right that would be safe from overloading the bus, but we don't want to complicate the text. If you want to do that, use the allowance for engineering and get an engineer to certify that it won't overload the bus."

See https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/2023-nec-705-12-b-6-engineering-supervision.2582836/ for discussion of that.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. If your panelboard would comply if you just count the load breakers, then you could certainly take all the supply breakers, pair them with matching load breakers, and then just use a single breaker in the panel for that load/supply pair, using a feeder interconnection to the feeder supplied with that breaker.
Ok thanks. Seems silly....and LOL, "dont want to complicate the text" thats like the funniest thing ive heard all year, coming from the "can-hardly-make-a-coherent-sentence CMP's :rolleyes:
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Why is it "both load and supply devices" and not just "load devices"?
...
Well, that way the same rule can cover combiner panels and panels that are underloaded with breakers. Also you don't have to argue about whether a breaker is a load or a source, which is helpful when it's both, such as the breaker to the micro-grid. Also what Wayne said.

I would guess it is taking a shot at PV installers that they wouldn't do a building load calculation per 220, and they had to come up with some calculation to be sure the busbar was not overloaded.

You are the one taking a shot at PV installers here. Most residential electricians in my experience are (slightly) less likely to learn to do a load calc than PV installers who might have to justify a main breaker downsize (not that either are likely to). I would love it if 705 allowed the busbar to be sized to the load calc and they stopped babysitting us over whether in some freak scenario the loads would draw more than the original main breaker, and I'm sure many commercial installers would jump on that opportunity, too. Heck, everyone is allowed to rely on load calcs for services with multiple disconnects. The CMP is just very conservative on not wanting interconnected sources to defeat overcurrent protection, it's always been that way in 705.

This rule could be one way to qualify a service panel bus but I don't believe it is commonly if ever used that way. It was added to the NEC in 2011 or 2014 (or thereabouts) to legitimize what we in solar were already doing with PV AC combiner panels.
It was added in 2014 and I've used it dozens of times to qualify service panels since it became code here in 2017.
 
Well, that way the same rule can cover combiner panels and panels that are underloaded with breakers. Also you don't have to argue about whether a breaker is a load or a source, which is helpful when it's both, such as the breaker to the micro-grid. Also what Wayne said.
I guess I am still not understanding why its not "sum off all load devices". IT seems very simple and more consistent with electrical theory. IS there a situation I am missing when it fails? Also that would have covered the common meter main with panelboard with feed thru lugs scenario.

Heck, everyone is allowed to rely on load calcs for services with multiple disconnects. The CMP is just very conservative on not wanting interconnected sources to defeat overcurrent protection, it's always been that way in 705.
Not mention the busbar in a MLO service panelboard (which although not allowed now, that change had nothing to do with concerns of overloading the busbar)
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I guess I am still not understanding why its not "sum off all load devices". IT seems very simple and more consistent with electrical theory. IS there a situation I am missing when it fails? Also that would have covered the common meter main with panelboard with feed thru lugs scenario.
<Insert my well worn comment about having to comply with the NEC whether or not we agree with or understand the reasoning behind it>
 
Top