Sump Pump receptacle not gfci ??

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ritelec

ritelec

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To get by the requirements of a sump pump plugging into a gfci receptacle in a basement.

Is it permissible to remove the plug and hard wire it with a switch instead ? And if so , does it void UL ratings of that pump.

Also, if the sump pump is tripping the current gfci receptacle it is plugged into.. but does not trip in a standard receptacle... does it mean that pump is defective?

Thank you..
 
ritelec said:
... void ul listing....
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According to UL, that is a decision only the AHJ can make.

Cutting off a molded-on plug is not likely to be viewed as a violation. But, hard wiring a cord in lieu of a receptacle would be a NEC compliance problem.
However, removing a factory installed cord and replacing it with different wiring method (e.g. flex) is likely a concern.
 
ritelec said:
not sure , sewer lift
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If the pump is tripping a GFCI it needs replaced or repaired, for sure. Could just be a bad seal. It may run for a while on no GFI but it will fail completely at some point.

The UL thing, my take on it is - however that thing comes out of the box is the way it is to make it UL listed. If you are serious about getting away from the GFI get a 240V pump.
 
If it trips the GFCI your equipment is bad. If the basement is finished GFCI protection is not required also in NJ a single receptacle is permitted for a sump pump without GFCI protection in an unfinished basement.
 
infinity said:
If it trips the GFCI your equipment is bad. If the basement is finished GFCI protection is not required also in NJ a single receptacle is permitted for a sump pump without GFCI protection in an unfinished basement.
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Agree except the red. I have never see a sump pit in a 'finished' area.

This is Ohio and see exception #2.

mods.JPG
 
jxofaltrds said:
Agree except the red. I have never see a sump pit in a 'finished' area.
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My basement contains a sump pump just behind my treadmill and down from my pool table, it is across the room from the sofa and the TV. It is 13? outside, and the pump runs daily.
 
I usually see then in a boxed in area the is not finished in a finished basement is what I should have said.

(5) Unfinished basements ? for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
 
jxofaltrds said:
I usually see then in a boxed in area the is not finished in a finished basement is what I should have said.

(5) Unfinished basements ? for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Click to expand...

So if we have a little 2'x2' enclosed area to house some equipment in a basement, you are saying that is "unfinished basement" and subjected to having a GFCI protected receptacle installed in it? Lets take this a step further and go with 210.52 required outlets - this space must have a GFCI protected receptacle installed, even if its only purpose is to hide the water meter?:(

Sorry, I realize it can be read and interpreted this way, but that has to be beyond the intent of why they want a receptacle in each unfinished space and if you made me put a receptacle in there I would be trying to stuff you into that space --- to give you the opportunity to use the thing:roll:
 
kwired said:
So if we have a little 2'x2' enclosed area to house some equipment in a basement, you are saying that is "unfinished basement" and subjected to having a GFCI protected receptacle installed in it? Lets take this a step further and go with 210.52 required outlets - this space must have a GFCI protected receptacle installed, even if its only purpose is to hide the water meter?:(

Sorry, I realize it can be read and interpreted this way, but that has to be beyond the intent of why they want a receptacle in each unfinished space and if you made me put a receptacle in there I would be trying to stuff you into that space --- to give you the opportunity to use the thing:roll:
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210.52 does not apply because the wall space is broken and yes some inspectors, before Ohio made the exception, would require a GFCI.

Now it gets better. If that inspector still is an @$$ and uses Ohio's exception you would have to have a GFCI with 6' of that single receptacle.

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jxofaltrds said:
210.52 does not apply because the wall space is broken and yes some inspectors, before Ohio made the exception, would require a GFCI.

Now it gets better. If that inspector still is an @$$ and uses Ohio's exception you would have to have a GFCI with 6' of that single receptacle.

View attachment 9776
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I should have been more specific, I was referring to 210.52(G)(2) requiring a receptacle in each "unfinished basement area", as I took your words to mean you think that this little cubby space in an otherwise finished space qualifies as an unfinished basement area.

Plus - I don't care what Ohio has to say about it:p
 
kwired said:
I should have been more specific, I was referring to 210.52(G)(2) requiring a receptacle in each "unfinished basement area", as I took your words to mean you think that this little cubby space in an otherwise finished space qualifies as an unfinished basement area.

Plus - I don't care what Ohio has to say about it:p
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Most Ohioans could care less also.
 
Things have gone too far

Things have gone too far

Just the simple notion of putting a sump pump on a GFCI is a guaranteed flood.
Regardless of the intent of those devices and all the intense micromanagement put into forcing them into the wrong places, they could be re-named with some coloful language about reliability with respect to keeping critical loads powered up.
 
There's two ways to look at these questions: the "practical" and the "theoretical." Practical first ....

In practical terms, a new pump with new GFCI is not going to present any 'false trip' problems. If the equipment we're speaking about is less than 10 years old. chances are that the pump itself is beginning to go bad. Megger testing of the pump will reveal the fault. Powering the pump from a diferent GFCI will reveal if the first GFCI is misbehaving.

As far as the 'theory' goes, there are some simple facts to bear in mind:
First off, the UL standards for GFCI's -and, by extension, all appliances- changed about 15 years ago. The resulting GFCI's are much less prone to 'nuisance' tripping, and the appliances (pumps, refrigerators, etc.) are not supposed to 'leak' enough to cause nuisance trips.

Voiding the UL listing? Balderdash. As made plain in the UL "White Book," there's not a darn thing you can do that will 'void' a listing. The worst you can do is create a situation where UL will say, if asked, "we don't know." You want to get technical, UL won't even admit that any specific piece of hardware meets their requirements- even as it's put in a box at the factory. You're on your own. You want a 1-time specific answer, pay for a field evaluation.

Removing plugs / adding flexible cords is always fodder for endless discussions regarding their "legality." Heck, you ought to see some of the lunchroom debates at UL, as young engineers debate wire twisting and wire nuts!

If it makes anyone feel any better, there have been some recent changes to the UL standard (electrically operated pumps) that allow a far greater degree of flexibility for the installer, and this whole "modification' pilpul. UL really does not have an issue with cutting off the plug- or, for that matter- installing a cord and plug. This may come as a surprise to the dishwasher / water heater crowd, but those are different standards (and different committees). I suspect that UL can see that no one answer fits every situation, and that the responsibility rests with the AHJ.

Sure, old habits die hard. Not putting the sump pump or refrigerator on a GFCI is enshrined in many local amendments. For the worrier, there ARE GFCI devices that sound an alarm when they trip. Makes sense to me! There are also readily available alarms to tell you when the water overflows the pit.

Code is code. Design is design. The two don't mix too well.
 
StarCat said:
Just the simple notion of putting a sump pump on a GFCI is a guaranteed flood.
Regardless of the intent of those devices and all the intense micromanagement put into forcing them into the wrong places, they could be re-named with some coloful language about reliability with respect to keeping critical loads powered up.
Click to expand...


Regardless GFCI protection is required if the receptacle is in a location that requires GFCI protection. The protection is for the receptacle not the sump pump. For those in NJ the point is moot. :)
 
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