Supply side bonding jumper

[hhsting]

Attached NEC 2017 exhibit the transformer is grounded and their is a supply side bonding jumper to the secondary panelboard.

However in the secondary panelboard their is also as the exhibit calls it supply side bonding jumper from secondary panelboard equipment grounding terminal to the panelboard enclosure

NEC 2017 section 250.30(A)(2) says supply side bonding jumper can be wire or bus type.

However in the secondary panelboard my supply side bonding jumper from secondary panelboard equipment grounding terminal bus to the enclosure is manufacturer provided screw.

Questions;

1. Can that part of from secondary panelboard equipment grounding terminal bus to the panelboard enclosure supply side bonding jumper or not?

2. Can that part of from secondary panelboard equipment grounding terminal bus to the panelboard enclosure be manufacturer provided screw or not?

 

[augie47]

The first sentence needs rewording. The illustration is correct and the bonding jumper in the panelboard can be a factory screw.

 

[hhsting]

The first sentence needs rewording. The illustration is correct and the bonding jumper in the panelboard can be a factory screw.

Yea but for secondary side panelboard the exhibit says thats supply side bonding jumper and supply side bonding jumper cannot be screw??? I am confused. If not that exhibit then which part of NEC 2017 apply to that portion?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yea but for secondary side panelboard the exhibit says thats supply side bonding jumper and supply side bonding jumper cannot be screw??? I am confused. If not that exhibit then which part of NEC 2017 apply to that portion?

The exhibit is not code, just someones opinion and is not enforceable.

I can't think of any way a supply side bonding jumper could ever be a screw. A system bonding jumper can be a screw, but not a supply side bonding jumper.

 

[hhsting]

The exhibit is not code, just someones opinion and is not enforceable.

I can't think of any way a supply side bonding jumper could ever be a screw. A system bonding jumper can be a screw, but not a supply side bonding jumper.

If exhibit is not code then what would that portion bonding jumper in the secondary panelboard from terminal G bar to enclosure called? Does that portion not fit the definition of supply side bonding jumper?

 

[augie47]

I believe the correct designation for the screw in the panel would be a system bonding jumper

 

[hhsting]

I believe the correct designation for the screw in the panel would be a system bonding jumper

It does not bond neutral to ground in panelboard. How is it system bonding jumper?

 

[augie47]

The system bonding jumper also bonds the disconnect enclosure.... which it does here.
Bottom line, the jumper belongs !

 

[hhsting]

The system bonding jumper also bonds the disconnect enclosure.... which it does here.
Bottom line, the jumper belongs !

Huh? Of ourse jumper belongs. That is not question. What material should jumper be factory screw?

See definition of system bonding jumper NEC 2017 article 100. It says at separately derived system. NEC 2017 section 100 separately derived system which says its electrical source.

The secondary side panelboard is not electrical source and not separately derived in the exhibit. So then that bonding jumper in panelboard secodnary to enclosure how is it system bonding jumper?

By that same argument NEC 2017 section 250.2 definition of supply side bonding jumper its for separately derived system and secondary panelboard exhibit is not separately derived so how is it supply side bonding jumper?

 

[augie47]

250.28 (A) Material. Main bonding jumpers and system bonding jumpers shall be of copper or other corrosion-resistant mate‐ rial. A main bonding jumper and a system bonding jumper shall be a wire, bus, screw, or similar suitable conductor.
They have changed descriptions over the years ans it's not worth my time getting into a semantics contest. Diagram as drawn is Code,"jumper" by whatever name, can be a screw.

 

[hhsting]

250.28 (A) Material. Main bonding jumpers and system bonding jumpers shall be of copper or other corrosion-resistant mate‐ rial. A main bonding jumper and a system bonding jumper shall be a wire, bus, screw, or similar suitable conductor.
They have changed descriptions over the years ans it's not worth my time getting into a semantics contest. Diagram as drawn is Code,"jumper" by whatever name, can be a screw.

See different exhibit see what “system bonding jumper is” see panelboard bonding jumper to enclosure it still called supply side bonding jumper

System bonding jumper = main bonding jumper only used for separately derived system


Panelboard bonding jumper to enclosure if supply side bonding jumper how can it be screw?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It doesn't matter what you want to call it, if the item is suitable for use as the system bonding jumper, it will be an effective bonding jumper. The installation of an actual supply side bond jumper in an enclosure that contains the system bonding jumper would be rare.

 

[hhsting]

It doesn't matter what you want to call it, if the item is suitable for use as the system bonding jumper, it will be an effective bonding jumper. The installation of an actual supply side bond jumper in an enclosure that contains the system bonding jumper would be rare.

Auguie posts and reply screwed up my initial question

I am sure the bonding jumper to panelboard from equipment grounding terminal to panelboard enclosure in first post exhibit is NOT system bonding jumper. Exhibit post #1 calls that supply side bonding jumper.

I have plans that show that secondary panelboard bonding jumper to enclosure is a screw and System bonding jumper is in the transformer and transformer is grounded with grounding electrode conductor

Now supply side bonding jumper cannot be a screw so thus questions on post #1. If its not supply side bonding jumper then what is it? I know its Not System bonding jumper

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Auguie posts and reply screwed up my initial question

I am sure the bonding jumper to panelboard from equipment grounding terminal to panelboard enclosure in first post exhibit is NOT system bonding jumper. Exhibit post #1 calls that supply side bonding jumper.

I have plans that show that secondary panelboard bonding jumper to enclosure is a screw and System bonding jumper is in the transformer and transformer is grounded with grounding electrode conductor

Now supply side bonding jumper cannot be a screw so thus questions on post #1. If its not supply side bonding jumper then what is it? I know its Not System bonding jumper

If the system bonding jumper is at the transformer, a supply side bonding jumper must be installed between the transformer and the secondary panel. A non-flixible metal raceway is suitable for that purpose. Assuming that the panel has a metal enclosure and the equipment grounding terminal bar is attached to that enclosure, there is no addition bonding required.

If the screws you are talking about are the screws between the equipment grounding bar and the enclosure, that is part of the listing and has nothing to do with the code rules.

 

[electrofelon]

Auguie posts and reply screwed up my initial question

Please submit form TPS-41 for a refund and apology.

I have plans that show that secondary panelboard bonding jumper to enclosure is a screw and System bonding jumper is in the transformer and transformer is grounded with grounding electrode conductor

Sounds like there should not be a bond at the panelboard, unless the bonding jumper you are talking about are the screws that mount the ground bar to the enclosure. In either case you should not be hung up on these details. Just provide note in plans for field inspector to confirm bonding details for SDS (he should check this anyway). The exact bonding detail really can't be nailed down at the planning stage as it will depend on the specifics of the equipment and the preference of the electrician. SO STOP DRIVING YOURSELF INSANE.

 

[hhsting]

If the system bonding jumper is at the transformer, a supply side bonding jumper must be installed between the transformer and the secondary panel. A non-flixible metal raceway is suitable for that purpose. Assuming that the panel has a metal enclosure and the equipment grounding terminal bar is attached to that enclosure, there is no addition bonding required.

If the screws you are talking about are the screws between the equipment grounding bar and the enclosure, that is part of the listing and has nothing to do with the code rules.

Their is a wire type supply side bonding jumper between panelboard and transformer.

However inside the panelboard the equipment grounding terminal is bonded to the panelboard enclosure using manufacturer screw.

Yes the screw in panelboard equipment grounding bus bonds the terminal ground bus to panelboard enclosure.

However according to exhibit post #1 that manufacturer provided screw inside panelboard equipment grounding terminal is supply side bonding jumper

Code does Not recognize manufacturer provided screw material as supply side bonding jumper. Do you see my point?

 

[hhsting]

Please submit form TPS-41 for a refund and apology.



Sounds like there should not be a bond at the panelboard, unless the bonding jumper you are talking about are the screws that mount the ground bar to the enclosure. In either case you should not be hung up on these details. Just provide note in plans for field inspector to confirm bonding details for SDS (he should check this anyway). The exact bonding detail really can't be nailed down at the planning stage as it will depend on the specifics of the equipment and the preference of the electrician. SO STOP DRIVING YOURSELF INSANE.

What I am talking about is inside the secondary panelboard and bonding the metallic panelboard enclosure to equipment grounding terminal post #1 exhibit. Ofcourse the metallic panelboard enclosure needs to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar inside.

Inside the panelboard the equipment grounding terminal is bonded to the panelboard enclosure using manufacturer provided screw.

Yes the screw in panelboard equipment grounding bus bonds the terminal ground bus to panelboard enclosure.

However according to exhibit post #1 that manufacturer provided screw inside panelboard equipment grounding terminal is supply side bonding jumper

Code does Not recognize manufacturer provided screw material as supply side bonding jumper. Do you see my point? And does this mean that even though their is screw one needs to provide wire type bonding jumper from equipment terminal to enclosure inside the panelboard since supply side bonding jumper can be wire?


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[wwhitney]

A screw bonding the grounding terminal bar to the panelboard enclosure, in lieu of the short wire "supply side bonding jumper" shown in the exhibit in the first post, does not violate 250.30(A)(2). You need to read the entire first paragraph of 250.30(A)(2), which I excerpted from the 2017 NEC below.

Note the bolded sentence, this is what 250.30(A)(2) is requiring, and what the subsequent specifications apply to. In the exhibit in the OP, only the long "supply side bonding jumper" is subject to 250.30(A)(2): it is run with the circuit conductors between the enclosures. Any bonding jumpers within the panelboard enclosure, such as the screw in question, are not subject to 250.30(A)(2).

So the use of a screw rather than a conductor to bond the grounding terminal bar to the panelboard enclosure is not a problem. [And FWIW if a conductor were used, it would terminate in a lug that is screwed to the enclosure, so there would still be a screw in the fault path. The distinction under discussion is not material.]

Cheers, Wayne

250.30(A)(2) Supply-Side Bonding Jumper. If the source of a separately derived system and the first disconnecting means are located in separate enclosures, a supply-side bonding jumper shall be installed with the circuit conductors from the source enclosure to the first disconnecting means. A supply-side bonding jumper shall not be required to be larger than the derived ungrounded conductors. The supply-side bonding jumper shall be permitted to be of nonflexible metal raceway type or of the wire or bus type as follows:

 

[hhsting]

A screw bonding the grounding terminal bar to the panelboard enclosure, in lieu of the short wire "supply side bonding jumper" shown in the exhibit in the first post, does not violate 250.30(A)(2). You need to read the entire first paragraph of 250.30(A)(2), which I excerpted from the 2017 NEC below.

Note the bolded sentence, this is what 250.30(A)(2) is requiring, and what the subsequent specifications apply to. In the exhibit in the OP, only the long "supply side bonding jumper" is subject to 250.30(A)(2): it is run with the circuit conductors between the enclosures. Any bonding jumpers within the panelboard enclosure, such as the screw in question, are not subject to 250.30(A)(2).

So the use of a screw rather than a conductor to bond the grounding terminal bar to the panelboard enclosure is not a problem. [And FWIW if a conductor were used, it would terminate in a lug that is screwed to the enclosure, so there would still be a screw in the fault path. The distinction under discussion is not material.]

Cheers, Wayne

250.30(A)(2) Supply-Side Bonding Jumper. If the source of a separately derived system and the first disconnecting means are located in separate enclosures, a supply-side bonding jumper shall be installed with the circuit conductors from the source enclosure to the first disconnecting means. A supply-side bonding jumper shall not be required to be larger than the derived ungrounded conductors. The supply-side bonding jumper shall be permitted to be of nonflexible metal raceway type or of the wire or bus type as follows:

So then which NEC 2017 section governs inside the secondary panelboard bonding jumper from equipment terminal to enclosure? Where it says it can be screw, wire etc?

 

[ActionDave]

What I am talking about is inside the secondary panelboard and bonding the metallic panelboard enclosure to equipment grounding terminal post #1 exhibit. Ofcourse the metallic panelboard enclosure needs to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar inside.

Inside the panelboard the equipment grounding terminal is bonded to the panelboard enclosure using manufacturer provided screw.

Yes the screw in panelboard equipment grounding bus bonds the terminal ground bus to panelboard enclosure.

However according to exhibit post #1 that manufacturer provided screw inside panelboard equipment grounding terminal is supply side bonding jumper

Code does Not recognize manufacturer provided screw material as supply side bonding jumper. Do you see my point? And does this mean that even though their is screw one needs to provide wire type bonding jumper from equipment terminal to enclosure inside the panelboard since supply side bonding jumper can be wire?


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Are saying is you are using a cartoon illustration from the NEC handbook to determine if a manufacture provided part in a UL listed panel is legal to install?