Supply side bonding jumper

[hhsting]

Are saying is you are using a cartoon illustration from the NEC handbook to determine if a manufacture provided part in a UL listed panel is legal to install?

Huh? That “cartoon” post #1 is in the NEC 2017 handbook as exhibit. Rules can be different for separately derived system and its the first disconnect after the source and yes manufacturer provided screw can be small who know you might have to provide wire for such as case

 

[ActionDave]

Huh? That “cartoon” post #1 is in the NEC 2017 handbook as exhibit.

The illustrations and commentary in the NEC handbook are explanatory only, they are not part of the code and they are not enforceable.

Rules can be different for separately derived system and its the first disconnect after the source and yes manufacturer provided screw can be small who know you might have to provide wire for such as case

Are you saying that UL listed panels and the accessories are not adequate and need to be modified in the field?

 

[wwhitney]

So then which NEC 2017 section governs inside the secondary panelboard bonding jumper from equipment terminal to enclosure? Where it says it can be screw, wire etc?

How about nothing? Surely the UL listing of the panelboard ensures that the mounting of a grounding bar to the enclosure can carry fault current. That screw isn't required to carry any other fault current, just a fault to the enclosure.

For a service supplied panelboard, the panelboard connectivity would look the same, absent the supply-side bonding jumper. Do you question whether the screw mounting a service panelboard ground bar to its enclosure is proper?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[hhsting]

The illustrations and commentary in the NEC handbook are explanatory only, they are not part of the code and they are not enforceable.

Are you saying that UL listed panels and the accessories are not adequate and need to be modified in the field?

According to exhibit post#1 that manufacturer provided screw bonding panel enclosure is supply side bonding jumper and according to the code section posted post #1 supply side bonding jumper is not recognized as screw. Apparently everything points to that yes. What do you think?

If that exhibit is explanatory to the code then it must be somewhere in the code NEC 2017 itself. Are you saying the exhibit was just made up without coming from code somewhere? They dont put fake exhibits that are not true and part of code language do they?

 

[ActionDave]

....If that exhibit is explanatory to the code then it must be somewhere in the code NEC 2017 itself. Are you saying the exhibit was just made up without coming from code somewhere? They dont put fake exhibits that are not true and part of code language do they?

It is an opinion and holds no more weight than an opinion about the NEC you would get anywhere else.

 

[hhsting]

How about nothing? Surely the UL listing of the panelboard ensures that the mounting of a grounding bar to the enclosure can carry fault current. That screw isn't required to carry any other fault current, just a fault to the enclosure.

For a service supplied panelboard, the panelboard connectivity would look the same, absent the supply-side bonding jumper. Do you question whether the screw mounting a service panelboard ground bar to its enclosure is proper?

Cheers, Wayne

Wait for service equipment 250.28(A) along with 250.24(B) code clearly recognizes it can be screw.

Post #1 exhibit that secondary panelboard equipment grounding terminal to enclosure bonding jumper is Not system bonding jumper either. It is not bonding neutral to ground. Their is no such language for the panelboard secondary side bonding jumper to enclosure from equipment terminal bar to be screw?

Available fault current separately derived system also depends on source size and strength. I understand thats same for utility but screw bonding jumper to enclosure in service equipment is recognized in code.

Show me a ul list for non service panelboard that says ok for supply side bonding jumper manufacturer provided screw and tested to be used on any size source or show me in NEC 2017 such language that says that secondary panelboard enclosure to the terminal bar equipment bonding jumper post#1 can be screw?

 

[hhsting]

It is an opinion and holds no more weight than an opinion about the NEC you would get anywhere else.

First your saying explanation to code and now its just opinion? These opinions are published by people who make NEC 2017 code they just dont put fake exhibits and call it a day. Now if it where some other book other than NEC 2017 handbook then i would question their opinion. But come on exhibits being NEC 2017 handbook and by code makers themself has a value weight .

Has to be somewhere in the code itself otherwise code makers are wrong they just make random exhibits what are they morons they cant express items clearly? (Which i am sire they are not).

Has to be in code somewhere for it to be in handbook exhibit and opinion coming from some code language

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

So what holds the lug or bar to the panels enclouser ? Would that not be a screw (s) of a 32 threads per inch.
Maybe a bolt and nut?
Ummm

 

[ActionDave]

....Has to be somewhere in the code itself otherwise code makers are wrong they just make random exhibits what are they morons they cant express items clearly? (Which i am sire they are not).

There's a ton of irony in that phrase you typed right there.

 

[hhsting]

There's a ton of irony in that phrase you typed right there.

What i am saying is those opinions in exhibits must be coming from code language somewhere and those opinions are in NEC 2017 handbook by code writers and carries weight. That exhibit post#1 must be derived from some code language otherwise are u saying that exhibit post #1 in handbook is fake their is no such code language?

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Looking at the pic it is as it says.
The ground bar is isolated and bonded to the enclouser via the SSBJ. Looks clear to me.

 

[hhsting]

Looking at the pic it is as it says.
The ground bar is isolated and bonded to the enclouser via the SSBJ. Looks clear to me.

Supply side bonding jumper is not recognized by code to be manufacturer provided screw by code reference post #1 that can bond equipment grounding terminal to the panelboard enclosure post #1 exhibit. However i have plans that show just that manufacturer provided screw secondary panelboard

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Again , what holds the bar to the enclouser. Screw(s).
Every panel board installation instructions I have read said to install the bar using provided screws.
If what say is true how and where do we attach the required conductor.
Help me understand!

 

[jim dungar]

What i am saying is those opinions in exhibits must be coming from code language somewhere and those opinions are in NEC 2017 handbook by code writers and carries weight. That exhibit post#1 must be derived from some code language otherwise are u saying that exhibit post #1 in handbook is fake their is no such code language?

You are wrong.
The NEC is created by Code Making Panels following a regimented procedure which includes public input.
The handbook text is created by some writers based on what they think the code says, it's only input is from the handbook editors.
The hand book exhibits come from some commercial artist based on what they think the handbook writers thought the NEC was saying.

I stopped buying handbooks several decades ago.

 

[hhsting]

Again , what holds the bar to the enclouser. Screw(s).
Every panel board installation instructions I have read said to install the bar using provided screws.
If what say is true how and where do we attach the required conductor.
Help me understand!

My concern is only for secondary panelboard where transformer is grounded and has system bonding jumper as shown on post #1. My question then is about bonding the ground bus bar to enclosure secondary panelboard. Now according to exhibit post #1 thats supply side bonding jumper. According to the post #1 code section provided supply side bonding jumper is not recognized as screw in code. So then it has to be wires? No? Cannot be manufacturer provided screw?

My question has nothing to do with Mounting ground bus bar. Mounting it and bonding the ground bar to enclosure are two separate items.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hhsting]

You are wrong.
The NEC is created by Code Making Panels following a regimented procedure which includes public input.
The handbook text is created by some writers based on what they think the code says, it's only input is from the handbook editors.
The hand book exhibits come from some commercial artist based on what they think the handbook writers thought the NEC was saying.

I stopped buying handbooks several decades ago.

Stop making handbooks exhibits with incorrect pictures that may not be in code language themself. Its just not right. Are they trying to confuse people?

I still think exhibit come from code language not fake though

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Ok, I get what your saying. Your saying that the screw can't be used or is not defined per NEC.
I went to 2017 and read definitions.
So your saying the screw is not a conductor. If so how can one use it for a MBJ.
I would recommend you read 250.2
Then jump down to 250.4 (1) -(5)
In a nut shall it says " in a manner"
So who determines that?
Now look at 250.8. (A) (1) - (5).
That's sums it up it says you can.
It directly say under permitted methods for bonding jumpers.

Now go back to 250.2
Bonding jumper, supply side.
There's a reason it starts with bonding jumper than supply side.

 

[wwhitney]

Show me a ul list for non service panelboard that says ok for supply side bonding jumper manufacturer provided screw and tested to be used on any size source or show me in NEC 2017 such language that says that secondary panelboard enclosure to the terminal bar equipment bonding jumper post#1 can be screw?

250.8(A)(5).

But more broadly, if you feel that a screw is not allowed to bond a ground terminal bar to a panelboard enclosure, the onus is on you to find an NEC rule that prohibits, or a UL standard applicable to the equipment that prohibits it. Otherwise, it's allowed.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. I do think that the diagram in the OP should not call the short little jumper from ground terminal bar to case a "supply side bonding jumper." Seems like a plain old bonding jumper to me, e.g. subject to 250.102(A) (which also allows screws).

P.P.S. Screws are omitted from the list in 250.30(A)(2) because a SSBJ is "installed with the circuit conductors" between enclosures. So that would be a very long screw.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Their is a wire type supply side bonding jumper between panelboard and transformer.

However inside the panelboard the equipment grounding terminal is bonded to the panelboard enclosure using manufacturer screw.

Yes the screw in panelboard equipment grounding bus bonds the terminal ground bus to panelboard enclosure.

However according to exhibit post #1 that manufacturer provided screw inside panelboard equipment grounding terminal is supply side bonding jumper

Code does Not recognize manufacturer provided screw material as supply side bonding jumper. Do you see my point?

The supply side bonding jumper of the wire type should be landed on the equipment grounding bar. The connection between the equipment grounding bar is by the manufacturer and part of a listed product. There is NO issue here.

 

[electrofelon]

250.8(A)(5).


P.S. I do think that the diagram in the OP should not call the short little jumper from ground terminal bar to case a "supply side bonding jumper." Seems like a plain old bonding jumper to me, e.g. subject to 250.102(A) (which also allows screws).

This right here ^^^. It is also my opinion that that jumper that sting is letting take several weeks off his life is not a SSBJ. And that drawing is kinda stupid, it should not even show a jumper from the ground bar to the enclosure. The ground bus is fastened to the enclosure, end of story.