Swimming pool GFCI protection

goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
One of my biggest customers is a day camp in my home town. There are (4) swimming pools with slides, heaters, etc. Several of the pool motors are 3-phase, 30-amp Delta, 240V units. Prior to last year the motors and heaters for these pools were not GFCI protected. Two weeks before the camp was due to open the local inspector came in to inspect the pool grounding and noticed that these motors and heaters were not properly protected. He would not sign-off on the grounding unless the owner provided GFCI protection for these pools.

That said, while I believe properly protecting the pools is the right thing to do, why did he wait until 2 weeks before the camp was due to open ? Not that $$$ had anything to do with this but the camp gets almost 1000 kids at $4K per kid for 42 days of camp. Do the math and you can understand why the camp owner became irritated when this "gun" was put to his head. This was not a matter of $$$ - it was a matter of timing.

Anyway, at the time the only breaker manufacturer that made 3-phase GFCI breakers was Square D but the camp had no Square D equipment installed. We found these products that we installed and they worked fine and were accepted by the inspector :

40-60 Amp Portable ELCI | GFCISTORE

www.gfcistore.com www.gfcistore.com

I'm posting this in case any of you have a similar situation for large pool facilities with 3-phase motors.
 
Was this the electrical inspector or an inspector from the board of health?

My experience with the commercial pools is the health department must be notified of the date the facility plans to open. Generally it is a two-week time period.
 
goldstar said:
One of my biggest customers is a day camp in my home town. There are (4) swimming pools with slides, heaters, etc. Several of the pool motors are 3-phase, 30-amp Delta, 240V units. Prior to last year the motors and heaters for these pools were not GFCI protected. Two weeks before the camp was due to open the local inspector came in to inspect the pool grounding and noticed that these motors and heaters were not properly protected. He would not sign-off on the grounding unless the owner provided GFCI protection for these pools.

That said, while I believe properly protecting the pools is the right thing to do, why did he wait until 2 weeks before the camp was due to open ? Not that $$$ had anything to do with this but the camp gets almost 1000 kids at $4K per kid for 42 days of camp. Do the math and you can understand why the camp owner became irritated when this "gun" was put to his head. This was not a matter of $$$ - it was a matter of timing.

Anyway, at the time the only breaker manufacturer that made 3-phase GFCI breakers was Square D but the camp had no Square D equipment installed. We found these products that we installed and they worked fine and were accepted by the inspector :

40-60 Amp Portable ELCI | GFCISTORE

www.gfcistore.com www.gfcistore.com

I'm posting this in case any of you have a similar situation for large pool facilities with 3-phase motors.
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Looking at 680.5(C) in 2023 NEC since you don't have a system that is less than 150 volts to ground, I think a device like you had a link to is exactly what NEC requires now in this situation - a SPGFCI. If you would have had a 208/120 supply then a regular class A GFCI is needed.
 
The inspector wouldn't just drop in without the owner having first applied for the annual pool inspection permit, and then requesting an inspection. The annual inspection probably expired this month which is why it was inspected.

Most of the annual pool inspections in my office expired this month.
 
kwired said:
Looking at 680.5(C) in 2023 NEC since you don't have a system that is less than 150 volts to ground, I think a device like you had a link to is exactly what NEC requires now in this situation - a SPGFCI. If you would have had a 208/120 supply then a regular class A GFCI is needed.
Click to expand...

The linked device is an ELCI (UL 1053). An SPGFCI (UL 943C) would be something like this:

60 Amp SPGFCI | GFCISTORE

www.gfcistore.com www.gfcistore.com

Not radically different of course (except maybe cost).
 
Ken_S said:
The inspector wouldn't just drop in without the owner having first applied for the annual pool inspection permit, and then requesting an inspection. The annual inspection probably expired this month which is why it was inspected.

Most of the annual pool inspections in my office expired this month.
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The EI was there to inspect the pool bonding that was inspected and certified by another EC. Purely by coincidence, he noticed that the pool motors were not GFCI protected and said that he wouldn't sign-off on the pool bonding unless the pools were GFCI protected. Now, as I mentioned in my opening post, I believe that GFCI protecting the pool motors is the right thing to do. However, holding the camp owner for ransom and giving him 2 weeks (because that's when the camp opens) to GFCI protect the pool motors is ridiculus. The camp has been in existence for 30 years and the motors have never been GFCI protected. The leasst he could have done was issue the camp a violation and given them more time to make the corrections. $$$ was never an issue - it was a timing thing !!!
 
goldstar said:
The EI was there to inspect the pool bonding that was inspected and certified by another EC. Purely by coincidence, he noticed that the pool motors were not GFCI protected and said that he wouldn't sign-off on the pool bonding unless the pools were GFCI protected. Now, as I mentioned in my opening post, I believe that GFCI protecting the pool motors is the right thing to do. However, holding the camp owner for ransom and giving him 2 weeks (because that's when the camp opens) to GFCI protect the pool motors is ridiculus. The camp has been in existence for 30 years and the motors have never been GFCI protected. The leasst he could have done was issue the camp a violation and given them more time to make the corrections. $$$ was never an issue - it was a timing thing !!!
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Right, he was there for the annual pool inspection, which is when he would also check for GFCI protection
 
Gene B said:
The linked device is an ELCI (UL 1053). An SPGFCI (UL 943C) would be something like this:

60 Amp SPGFCI | GFCISTORE

www.gfcistore.com www.gfcistore.com

Not radically different of course (except maybe cost).
Click to expand...
I think main thing NEC has taken into consideration is a class A GFCI may not be available but these SPGFCI's still provide protection in certain cases. One more fairly recent change in the AFCI/GFCI changes that maybe does make some sense, though many the places that they have added GFCI protection requirements aren't all that justified.
 
Ken_S said:
Right, he was there for the annual pool inspection, which is when he would also check for GFCI protection
Click to expand...
goldstar said:
The EI was there to inspect the pool bonding that was inspected and certified by another EC. Purely by coincidence, he noticed that the pool motors were not GFCI protected and said that he wouldn't sign-off on the pool bonding unless the pools were GFCI protected. Now, as I mentioned in my opening post, I believe that GFCI protecting the pool motors is the right thing to do. However, holding the camp owner for ransom and giving him 2 weeks (because that's when the camp opens) to GFCI protect the pool motors is ridiculus. The camp has been in existence for 30 years and the motors have never been GFCI protected. The leasst he could have done was issue the camp a violation and given them more time to make the corrections. $$$ was never an issue - it was a timing thing !!!
Click to expand...
Exactly what does an EI do to inspect pool bonding at an existing pool? EI's around here wouldn't carry proper equipment to do this. The most they may do is verify any exposed bonding conductors are intact and connected. Other than at pumps and other similar equipment where said conductors are typically exposed the parts of the equipotential bonding system that really matter are usually encapsulated in concrete and would need more complex methods of checking whether they are good.

Seems like a cash grab for the electrical inspection dept to require coming to inspect things on a regular basis that were already approved when first constructed or looked at any time additions were made and similar. They can pass it off in name of safety but the things that matter most in electric shocks at swimming pools involve integrity of the equipotential bonding and like I said most of what matters the most is encapsulated and not something that can be inspected with a simple visual type inspection. But the public has a feel good about this because it was inspected.
 
kwired said:
Exactly what does an EI do to inspect pool bonding at an existing pool? EI's around here wouldn't carry proper equipment to do this. The most they may do is verify any exposed bonding conductors are intact and connected. Other than at pumps and other similar equipment where said conductors are typically exposed the parts of the equipotential bonding system that really matter are usually encapsulated in concrete and would need more complex methods of checking whether they are good.

Seems like a cash grab for the electrical inspection dept to require coming to inspect things on a regular basis that were already approved when first constructed or looked at any time additions were made and similar. They can pass it off in name of safety but the things that matter most in electric shocks at swimming pools involve integrity of the equipotential bonding and like I said most of what matters the most is encapsulated and not something that can be inspected with a simple visual type inspection. But the public has a feel good about this because it was inspected.
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The bonding certification (good for five years) and annual inspection are limited to commercial pools.
It's a general electrical safety inspection, and due to unqualified maintenance personnel I find issues all the time.
 
goldstar said:
The EI was there to inspect the pool bonding that was inspected and certified by another EC. Purely by coincidence, he noticed that the pool motors were not GFCI protected and said that he wouldn't sign-off on the pool bonding unless the pools were GFCI protected. Now, as I mentioned in my opening post, I believe that GFCI protecting the pool motors is the right thing to do. However, holding the camp owner for ransom and giving him 2 weeks (because that's when the camp opens) to GFCI protect the pool motors is ridiculus. The camp has been in existence for 30 years and the motors have never been GFCI protected. The leasst he could have done was issue the camp a violation and given them more time to make the corrections. $$$ was never an issue - it was a timing thing !!!
Click to expand...
Inspector could easily say get it done as soon as you can and let me know when its done and I'll circle back and check it. Keeps everyone happy.
 
Ken_S said:
The bonding certification (good for five years) and annual inspection are limited to commercial pools.
It's a general electrical safety inspection, and due to unqualified maintenance personnel I find issues all the time.
Click to expand...
But do they inspect the equipotential bonding other than visual inspection of any portions of it that are exposed to assure they are still intact?
 
The California Energy Commission (CEC) figured this out long ago. The local AHJ does not have the expertise or technical equipment to properly inspect "Stray Currant" and other technical issues. In California you have an approved independent provider's that trains and supervises inspectors with sophisticated equipment that can detect many technical issues. "HERS" is one example. On the commercial side you have the Third-Party inspectors for the HVAC, Lighting and Mechanical, installations in buildings, which CEC requires to pass inspection. In California the two major providers are CHEERS & CalCERTS.
 
kwired said:
Exactly what does an EI do to inspect pool bonding at an existing pool? EI's around here wouldn't carry proper equipment to do this. The most they may do is verify any exposed bonding conductors are intact and connected. Other than at pumps and other similar equipment where said conductors are typically exposed the parts of the equipotential bonding system that really matter are usually encapsulated in concrete and would need more complex methods of checking whether they are good.

Seems like a cash grab for the electrical inspection dept to require coming to inspect things on a regular basis that were already approved when first constructed or looked at any time additions were made and similar. They can pass it off in name of safety but the things that matter most in electric shocks at swimming pools involve integrity of the equipotential bonding and like I said most of what matters the most is encapsulated and not something that can be inspected with a simple visual type inspection. But the public has a feel good about this because it was inspected.
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the pool bonding certification is done by another EC. They issue a certification letter to the camp. As far as I know the EI visually inspects the pool binding(s). If he notices any connection or bug that's corroded he will cite it.

In all fairness, I don't think this is a "cash-grab" by the EI and the township. This EI is extremely cautious about what he passes and what he lets get by (which is very little). He is thorough in his inspections but what I think he lacks is a bit of compassion and understanding of certain situations IMHO.
 
Ken_S said:
The bonding certification (good for five years) and annual inspection are limited to commercial pools.
It's a general electrical safety inspection, and due to unqualified maintenance personnel I find issues all the time.
Click to expand...
There's some type of State run camp authority that exists and the camp owners have to submit a annual report(s) of several different types to that agency before the camp can officially open. Pool bonding certification is one of those reports.
 
goldstar said:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the pool bonding certification is done by another EC. They issue a certification letter to the camp. As far as I know the EI visually inspects the pool binding(s). If he notices any connection or bug that's corroded he will cite it.

In all fairness, I don't think this is a "cash-grab" by the EI and the township. This EI is extremely cautious about what he passes and what he lets get by (which is very little). He is thorough in his inspections but what I think he lacks is a bit of compassion and understanding of certain situations IMHO.
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While the EIs actions may seem harsh, I think it's worth considering his point of view that he's responsible for signing off on a pool which several hundred kids will be utilizing.
 
If he accepted that device, you are done.

But I never like seeing the wording “Meets UL1053” or “UL1053 compliant”, while avoiding actually saying “UL 1053 listed”. That smacks of scammishness to me.

And if you look at their other products, they actually SAY “UL 943C listed”, which means they KNOW the difference and must therefore be deliberately avoiding saying it.
 
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