Switch on arc-fault

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Mark, when a light comes into play we are talking more than just a switch, the light, whether it is in the handle or below the switch, is a light, not a switch.

Imagine a Tork or Intermatic motorized time clock, the motor is a motor not a switch.

We can't make a light a switch even though it may be built into a switch, it is a seperate animal, so yes, IMO it becomes a lighting outlet.

Roger

[ December 06, 2005, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by roger:
[
Once we take a switch in it's pure form and start adding lights, bells,and whistles too it, of course it changes how it may be looked at or treated in its installation or wiring.

Roger
Click to expand...
So bells and whistles are outlets? :D
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

laughabove.gif
Soitenly they are
tnSGPA9.jpg
Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.

Roger
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

I have an idea! Let's use the presence of a neutral to determine that status of a lighted switch or timer.

If there is a neutral connection to the device(s), then it's an outlet. If not, it's not. :cool:
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

I'll be watching this one closely. I'm the one who forced an end to the record-setting thread. But I do recall that I carefully and intentionally dodged this aspect (i.e., lighted switch) in that other thread. I recall saying that I would address the lighted switch if any when we came to an agreement on the simple no-frills switch. That agreement never happened (i.e., nobody ever called my raise), so I don't have to show my hand.

Do I think a lighted switch counts as an "outlet"? I'll not tell (at least not without a huge bribe). So there. :D
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

No bribe Charlie b, so I beg of you, please close this thread. :D

Roger
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

This is not a black and white issue.First we must deal with what nec says is an outlet.Then we need to figure out intent.
What if i take that same switch that controls the flood light and simply turn it 180 so that it faces into living room instead of bed room.Has anything really changed as far as safety ? Why did they select bedrooms ? Your creating unneeded cost to items that would be fine if just switched from some other room.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Charlie b, please, please close this thread, I'll pay you, name your price. ;)

Roger
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by jimwalker:
This is not a black and white issue.First we must deal with what nec says is an outlet.Then we need to figure out intent.
What if i take that same switch that controls the flood light and simply turn it 180 so that it faces into living room instead of bed room.Has anything really changed as far as safety ? Why did they select bedrooms ? Your creating unneeded cost to items that would be fine if just switched from some other room.
Click to expand...
IMHO you are absolutly right. Some desiger was playing golf with some mfg and came up with this idea. the intention was to reduce house fires caused by extension cords in the bedroom. I dont have the links at hand, but what I have read is they do not do that. however they are in the code and required. IMHO leagal does not mean right, but we live in a democracy. so you have the right to appeal. unfortuantly, with regard to the NEC you will have to wait for the next cycle.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Charlie if I remember correctly I was the 1st to bring this up with a lighted switch and it was quickly set aside.
But it was a bonafide question and still is :D The lighted porion of a switch might not control dirrectional flow but it is part of a circuit that utilizes electricity and that very point was the reason the thread went so long.Does it send or does it utilize ????
So now here we are again does a switch(lighted) utilize or just direct the flow :cool:
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by allenwayne: Charlie if I remember correctly I was the 1st to bring this up with a lighted switch and it was quickly set aside.
Click to expand...
OK. I'll give my opinion. And anyone who wants to may also give an opinion. But we will not rehash any old arguments. We will not debate the question again. If I see any exchanges of code articles and "you are wrong because this says . . . ," I will close the thread.

My opinion is that putting a switch into an outlet box does not call into existence an "outlet," as defined by the NEC. Furthermore, that statement does not change if the switch is lighted, nor if it has any fancy electronics to turn on and off lights in any preset sequence.

What follows is a short summary of what I have said before. I offer no argument, no proof, no supporting evidence. I merely assert that this is the basis of my opinion.

My reasoning is that I view the term "utilization equipment" as meaning the thing without which there is no reason to have a switch in the first place. If the switch turns on a light, then the light is the utilization equipment. If the switch turns on a receptacle, then whatever is plugged into the receptacle is the utilization equipment. In no case, ever, does a switch take current from a premises wiring system to supply utilization equipment. Rather, the switch is part of the "premises wiring system," having been explicitly included in the definition of that phrase, since it is a member of the set called "wiring devices." A lighted switch is just another "wiring device."
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Where do we draw the line on how big the load is before we call it an outlet ? 60 watts sure,how about a 7 watt night light,smoke detectors take how much ? So is there a magical number that says if under 1 watt its not a load ? But i do agree that just a switch uses nothing any more than the wire itself does.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

I hope this doesn't sound like the beginings of a debate, which I said we wouldn't do. If it seems that way to anyone, I'll delete it.

But to answer your question, as a way of explaining the basis of my opinion, the only night light I have ever seen plugs into a receptacle. That would be "utilization equipment." I haven't seen a switch that doubles as a night light, but I would be inclined to include it as being in the set of "wiring devices." Smoke detectors are certainly "utilization equipment." But I do not understand associating them with a question about switches.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

P&S makes a "wiring device", so labeled in the downloadable MSWord document here, that is a night light. The document is a "specification document."

The night light model number is the TMHWL.

Wiring this "device" requires a neutral and a hot.

The night light includes a device yoke and mounts in a standard single gang box behind a decora cover plate. The "sensor-less" version (that is, the version without a photoeye) is most commonly installed with a wall switch (or switches) remote mounted or local that control the hallway light.

It is my opinion that this "wiring device" produces light, utilizes energy for lighting purpose and is utilization equipment.

Edit typo - Al

[ December 07, 2005, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

I agree with Jim and Al.

Here is the schematic for a Hubbell pilot light switch (pilot light on in the on position)

sp-pilot-diag.gif


For the pilot light to work there must be a voltage drop across it and current (probably in the ma or ua range) will flow regardless of whether there is a load past the switch or not.

IMO if this light is the cause of current flow, it in itself is utilizing electricity, becoming an outlet.

However, the switch contacts are still just a switch.


Roger
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Careful, now folks. There is a slippery slope here. While others maintain that "wiring devices" do not have wire in them and therefore aren't excluded from the Premises Wiring (System) by the second sentence of that definition, I believe the opposite.

Roger, thanks for the Hubbel wiring diagram. The combination of a switch and pilot light will add a complexity to the question that I have in mind. . .so, instead of the switch/pilot light, consider just the P&S TMHWL hallway light.

The P&S TMHWL is shown, below, at the lower right of the group of "wiring devices".
dec_combo3wd.jpg

QUESTION: If a P&S TMHWL is installed in a bedroom, and is controlled by a switch outside the bedroom, does the P&S TMHWL require a circuit that is protected by AFCI?
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
QUESTION: If a P&S TMHWL is installed in a bedroom, and is controlled by a switch outside the bedroom, does the P&S TMHWL require a circuit that is protected by AFCI?
Click to expand...
Yes. The TMHWL is an outlet. Its purpose is to take electric power to produce light. If it is located in a bedroom, the circuit that supplies it is required to be protected by an AFCI.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top