Switch on arc-fault

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Re: Switch on arc-fault

Agreed, ditto what eprice said.

If you installed a switch/outlet device, with a switch on the top half and a receptacle on the lower half, you'd need AFCI protection as well. The receptacle calls for it.

A simple switch, flying solo, does not require AFCI protection.

edit - realized the object in question didn't have a switch with it. :D :p

[ December 08, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Wow a recognition for the Florida cracker boys.After all we aren`t all dumb hicks (did I say that ??? ) On a serious side there has to come a point in time where we make the FINAL designation of a switch or an outlet being 1 in the same.I will agree while there is no more than directional control for the switch it is part of the wiring system and at that point of the system.But once we add a neutral into the senario there can only be one obvious conclusion use is being applied and that my friends goes back to an afci circuit.If it needs a neutral then it needs afci protection.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Eprice, George,

I agree that the P&S TMHWL hallway light, when installed inside a bedroom, must have AFCI protection.

However, here's the slippery slope. The TMHWL is a wiring device. It is a wiring device with a light in it, and no way to connect a piece of utilization equipment with a cord and plug. The TMHWL is a wiring device, not a luminaire.

Charlie B has stated, in his position showing that an outlet cannot occur in a switch used as a controller, that wiring devices are part of the "stuff" that goes along with wire, but that wiring devices do not have wiring in them.

As a result, whatever is in a wiring device cannot be removed from the Premises Wiring (System), and therefore, cannot be an outlet.

So, one clear school of thought seems to say: the P&S TMHWL cannot be an outlet, regardless of whether it makes light or not, because it is a "wiring device", and therefore, in and of itself does not require AFCI protection.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

It is a wiring device with a light in it, and no way to connect a piece of utilization equipment with a cord and plug. The TMHWL is a wiring device, not a luminaire.
Click to expand...
Call it cracked corn, it's utilization equipment in an outlet. It's consuming power to generate light.

It doesn't need a luminaire tag, it doesn't need a cord. It can be utilization equipment without the UL's consent, the NEC is calling it names too. :)
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

How about an in-wall louvered night-light, like you'd see in a hospital?
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

What if i had a dead front gfci device wouldn`t you still have to have it afci first.This is in a bedroom senario, it doesn`t utilize squat just directs but also needs a neutral to operate so what`s the difference. ;)
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Call it cracked corn, it's utilization equipment in an outlet. It's consuming power to generate light.
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George, I absolutely agree.

When I hold this P&S TMHWL wiring device in my hand and I can feel that it utilizes energy for lighting purpose. This is the physical-in-my-hand contradiction that nudges me down the slippery slope to the certain answer for George T. Everett's opening post that says, "Yes, AFCI is required."

To me, the P&S TMHWL hallway light wiring device is utilization equipment. That means an outlet occurs that ends the Premises Wiring (System), probably at the terminal screws on the TMHWL wiring device. The internal wiring of the TMHWL is not part of the Premises Wiring (System) if an outlet occurs at it.

That means wiring devices are part of the wiring, internal and external, etc. etc., and are not "stuff" in addition to wiring, devoid of wire. "Stuff" that cannot be removed from the Premises Wiring (System). To the contrary, the TMHWL is one perfect example of why a wiring device has wiring in it.

If this P&S TMHWL wiring device is "wiring", then so are other wiring devices, most noteably, snap switches, . . . and here I'll stop lest I rehash the "other thread".
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by LarryFine:
How about an in-wall louvered night-light, like you'd see in a hospital?
Click to expand...
Larry,

Do you have a make(s) and model number(s) so we can look up some documentation?

If the manufacturer (and UL) labels the unit as a "wiring device", not a luminaire, then what you are thinking of is similar to the P&S TMHWL.
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by allenwayne:
What if i had a dead front gfci device. . .
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Interesting idea, Allen. I see the dead front GFCI as having "electronic purpose" which classifies it, in my opinion, as utilization equipment. The dead front GFCI also acts as a controller (see this P&S specification document) and a switch, but I'll say no more about that 'cause that rehashes the "other thread".
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Yeah, I agree with Bob and George.

I'm ashamed that I posted in this thread earlier. :(

Roger
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

OK, guys. I feel shame. :eek:

Setting aside my emotional hooks. . .

There is a rational question here.

If I install a P&S TMHWL hallway light wiring device in a bedroom, can I leave it on a NON-AFCI circuit?

And, if not AFCI protected, how do I convince my AHJ that he should allow it?
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Remember.

The P&S TMHWL is a wiring device. It cannot be separated from the Premises Wiring (System), in other's opinion.

The P&S TMHWL is a wiring device with a "light" in it. . .nothing more than a "light".
 
Re: Switch on arc-fault

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Originally posted by allenwayne:
What if i had a dead front gfci device. . .
Click to expand...
Interesting idea, Allen. I see the dead front GFCI as having "electronic purpose" which classifies it, in my opinion, as utilization equipment. The dead front GFCI also acts as a controller (see this P&S specification document) and a switch, but I'll say no more about that 'cause that rehashes the "other thread".
Click to expand...
So we still agree to disagree ,hold on im coming to join for that head long run into that wall.No wait There will have to be lighting to see does this start in a bedroom???
 
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