switches

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JIM27

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WORK FOR WALT DISNEY WORLD AT THE YACHT AND BEACH RESORT. I HAVE AN ENGINEERING MANAGER WHO IS INSTALLING "Spring-Wound Wall Switchs" with no HOLD in all electrical closets and mechanical rooms. I believe this is against code, but I cannot find it in the book. Need help.
thanks JIM
 
Re: switches

I don't quite follow. Are you saying they have put in spring wound switches that will turn on the light, and then turn it off again when the spring runs down (i.e., when it times out)? If so, what do you mean by "no hold"?

Is your question about the type of switches, or about the lack of a feature you think the switches need, or about the location of the switches?
 
Re: switches

Here is your answer, its a violation:
110.26(D)
(D) Illumination. Illumination shall be provided for all working spaces about service equipment, switchboards, panelboards, or motor control centers installed indoors. Additional lighting outlets shall not be required where the work space is illuminated by an adjacent light source or as permitted by 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, for switched receptacles. In electrical equipment rooms, the illumination shall not be controlled by automatic means only.
 
Re: switches

I need a better definition of automatic or something. What is the violation if you are manually turning on the light it is not being controlled by automatic means only. :D :D :confused: Basically, IMO it is poorly worded.
 
Re: switches

A spring wound switch will turn off the light "AUTOMATICALLY". This could leave a worker in the dark when the timer runs out. This may be a very dangerous situation, especially if the worker is working in a live panel. In many of these types of installations a motion detector switch is used, but the switch must have a way to turn it on Maunally and the light must then stay on until turned off manually. This requirement is hinted at in the NEC but I am sure that OSHA would consider these spring switches as a safety hazard and a violation.
Also see the definition of "automatic" in article 100. The spring wound switch definitely meets the definition of automatic as it "operates by its own mechanism when actuated by some impersonal influence". What could be more impersonal than a timer?
 
Re: switches

Originally posted by tom baker:
Here is your answer, its a violation:
110.26(D)
(D) Illumination. Illumination shall be provided for all working spaces about service equipment, switchboards, panelboards, or motor control centers installed indoors. Additional lighting outlets shall not be required where the work space is illuminated by an adjacent light source or as permitted by 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, for switched receptacles. In electrical equipment rooms, the illumination shall not be controlled by automatic means only.
Click to expand...
Automatic: Self-acting, operating by its own mechanism when actuated by some impersonal influence , as, for example, a change in current, pressure, temperature, or mechanical configuration.

In many of these types of installations a motion detector switch is used, but the switch must have a way to turn it on Maunally and the light must then stay on until turned off manually
Click to expand...
Where does it state that it must stay on until turned off manually?

I feel that it a very personal action turning these spring loaded switches (timers) on. If these timers fit the NECs definition of automatic, why wouldn't any toggle switch, push button or similar device fit same description? In all of these actions an individual is only moving something mechanically.

Now that I have muddied up the waters, I firmly believe the intent was to have illumination stay on until manually turned off. :) :)
 
Re: switches

Originally posted by dlhoule: Where does it state that it must stay on until turned off manually?
Click to expand...
Right here:
. . . the illumination shall not be controlled by automatic means ONLY.
Click to expand...
If it is not "automatic only," then it must necessarily be "manual also." And if it is "controlled," that must necessarily mean "turned on and turned off."
 
Re: switches

Sounds like someone is earning brownie points by showing a minor savings IE:electricbill.Charlie I agree that if there is an automatic then there is also a manual status.This is a flawed design and as stated dangerous too.But this is Florida and until someone blows thier fingers off or worse it will be allowed(did I say that) :p This is also from a company that will fire an employee for having tatooes or a mustache that is to long but tiger can moleste kids at will.Go figure :roll:
 
Re: switches

210.70 exception

"Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will
allow the sensor to function as a wall switch."

I know that the questioned switch is not an occupancy sensor type, but this may be what some people are basing their answer on.
 
Re: switches

To further muddy this up are the circuits feeding the lights by chance 'emergency' circuits?

If these lights are fed via an Article 700 emergency system you can not switch them off unless they are set up to automatically come back on during a power failure. :p

[ February 10, 2006, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: switches

Chapter 13 of the FBC is the statewide uniform standard for energy efficiency, in short the 'new energy rules.' Tom Baker provided the correct NEC rule. Looking up "switch" as a boolean search here shows 'applicability,' and exception 3 implies that life safety rules forbid applying the state's new lighting rules in electrical equipment rooms. Presumably, similar rules exist for many areas people work there. This page states that the rules cannot be made more lenient or stringent by local government.

Your Engineering Manager will probably realize the mistake on his/her own. If not, a simple call to someone in HR should get things straightened out.

edit: spelling error

[ February 10, 2006, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: peteo ]
 
Re: switches

We often use spring-wound light switches for part of the general lighting in electrical/mechanical rooms for energy saving.

But we make sure that there is also other unswitched lighting in the same room that is either on emergency ckt. or is on 24-hour night light ckt.
 
Re: switches

Larry,

Good solution. Problem is, is the twist timer works, then there's no reason to keep looking for a switch to keep the light on.

Just remove the twist timer, put in a switch. Done. :)

What could be more impersonal than a timer?
Click to expand...
I feel that it a very personal action turning these spring loaded switches (timers) on.
Click to expand...
It's statements like this that just get me rolling. :D :D
 
Re: switches

The spring wound timer without hold has an automatic shutoff.

Use a spring wound timer with hold.
 
Re: switches

Originally posted by charlie b:
Originally posted by dlhoule: Where does it state that it must stay on until turned off manually?
Click to expand...
Right here:
. . . the illumination shall not be controlled by automatic means ONLY.
Click to expand...
If it is not "automatic only," then it must necessarily be "manual also." And if it is "controlled," that must necessarily mean "turned on and turned off."
Click to expand...
Thanks Charlie, good point. Now just 1 question, why would anyone want to spend the money for anything automatic in this situation?

If you used a door switch to turn the lights on and off would that be considered automatic? You would have to open door to turn lights on and have to open it again to turn lights off. A manual action to turn lights on or off. I wouldn't want to be working on something and have someone else come in though.
 
Re: switches

Originally posted by dlhoule:
I wouldn't want to be working on something and have someone else come in though.
Click to expand...
"Hey, I'm working in here! Close and open the door, will ya'?!"

:confused:
 
Re: switches

JIM,,
HOW DO YOU LIKE WORKING IN DISNEY??,,YOU GUYS HIRING??
BEEN THERE MANY TIMES AND HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT WORKING THERE,,
ONE MORE THING I'VE NOTICED THERE,THERES NEVER ANY LIGHT BULBS BURNT OUT,,HOW DO YOU DO IT?
KEEP UP THE GREAT JOB!!!
sorry for the caps,,just noticed,,
 
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