Tandem Breaker Tie Bar

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Smart $ said:
I was trying to make a new post to this effect before you posted, but I inadvertently edited my existing post out of existence. Fortunately, I recovered my original post from your reply and just modified it. :D
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Your modified idea would still require a simultaneous disconnecting means because of the single yoke. My cheapo idea of two individual $2 SP switches wouldn't.
 
cmreschke said:
As I stated earlier then, this is not a mwbc. You have the capabilities to pull 2-120v ckts but you will need to pull them in seperate cable runs. You cannot share the neutral between the two.
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As I stated in my original post that started this thread, it is NOT a MWBC and each circuit has it's own neutral---1 black, 1 red, 2 neutrals and 1 ground run in 1/2 emt, but I'm still not clear on this "2 circuit rated" version of a double pole switch. I could put in that double switch as pictured by an earlier poster if necessary...but now I'm stuck on finding out if a "2 circuit rated" switch actually exists!!

Kevin
 
KevFla2001 said:
As I stated in my original post that started this thread, it is NOT a MWBC and each circuit has it's own neutral---1 black, 1 red, 2 neutrals and 1 ground run in 1/2 emt, but I'm still not clear on this "2 circuit rated" version of a double pole switch. I could put in that double switch as pictured by an earlier poster if necessary...but now I'm stuck on finding out if a "2 circuit rated" switch actually exists!!

Kevin
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You cannot use a 2 pole switch in this application so you'll have to find another method. There are several good suggestions in this thread.

Smart $ said:
Most likely the least costly method, but for the record, they do make handle ties for tandem breakers (aka duplex breakers)

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...ntial/docs_Circuit Breakers/SIE_IS_ECQTH2.pdf
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Yup, I've used them a few times and was trying to save the poster some money. :cool:
 
ActionDave said:
Is this something in the UL white book?
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Yes I believe that we had a thread about this not too long ago. It has to do with the listing of the 2-pole switch and it being served by only one circuit. Maybe someone can dig up that thread.
 
KevFla2001 said:
As I stated in my original post that started this thread, it is NOT a MWBC and each circuit has it's own neutral---1 black, 1 red, 2 neutrals and 1 ground run in 1/2 emt, but I'm still not clear on this "2 circuit rated" version of a double pole switch. I could put in that double switch as pictured by an earlier poster if necessary...but now I'm stuck on finding out if a "2 circuit rated" switch actually exists!!

Kevin
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I'm sorry, I read and reread the original post, somehow I saw a 1 in front of the word neutral. I didn't see a 2. I appologize.
 
curt swartz said:
Those are designed to handle tie 2 tandem breakers mounted next to each other. They will not work on 2 handles of a single tandem breaker.
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That is correct.

So for anyone planning to use them, plan accordingly... or circuits may need swapped.
 
ActionDave said:
Is this something in the UL white book?
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Yes, it had been in the white book for many years and if you look at the directions for the switch (yeah I know :D ) you will see they say 'single circuit use only'.

Apparently people were ignoring that or unaware of it so this was added not to long ago.

404.8(C) Multipole Snap Switches. A multipole, general-use
snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than
a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a two circuit
or three-circuit switch.


Informational Note: See 21 0.7 for disconnect requirements
where more than one circuit supplies a switch.
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I think it is ridiculous that the switch is fine for a MWBC but add neutral to make it two 2-wire circuits and suddenly it is a violation.
 
iwire said:
Yes, it had been in the white book for many years and if you look at the directions for the switch (yeah I know :D ) you will see they say 'single circuit use only'.

Apparently people were ignoring that or unaware of it so this was added not to long ago.



I think it is ridiculous that the switch is fine for a MWBC but add neutral to make it two 2-wire circuits and suddenly it is a violation.
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If you read a little further, according to the 2011 NEC Code, it states:

(C) Multipole Snap Switches. A multipole, general-use
snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than
a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a twocircuit
or three-circuit switch, OR unless its voltage rating is
not less than the nominal line-to-line voltage of the system
supplying the circuits.

Informational Note: See 210.7 for disconnect requirements
where more than one circuit supplies a switch.

210.7 Multiple Branch Circuits. Where two or more
branch circuits supply devices or equipment on the same
yoke, a means tosimultaneously disconnect the ungrounded
conductors supplying those devices shall be provided
at the point at which the branch circuits originate.
Line to line voltage would be 120 volts. The switch is rated 20 amp, 125/277 volts. The branch circuit disconnect would be the tie barred tandem 20 amp breaker in the panel.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about interpreting this NEC 2011 code. NEC 2014 dropped the voltage rating exclusion, disallowing the use of this switch at that time. This is all academic anyway since Florida uses the 2011 code book.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
KevFla2001 said:
If you read a little further, according to the 2011 NEC Code, it states:

(C) Multipole Snap Switches. A multipole, general-use
snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than
a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a twocircuit
or three-circuit switch, OR unless its voltage rating is
not less than the nominal line-to-line voltage of the system
supplying the circuits.

Informational Note: See 210.7 for disconnect requirements
where more than one circuit supplies a switch.
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Kevin, I am not sure what is up but neither my 2011 or 2014 have the 'OR' you are showing us.
 
iwire said:
Kevin, I am not sure what is up but neither my 2011 or 2014 have the 'OR' you are showing us.
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I just copied and pasted from the pdf file I have of the 2011 code. I still can't understand why I can't find a 2 circuit double pole switch anywhere, and the Leviton tech's quote was "I've been working here for a very long time and I've never heard of a 2 circuit double pole switch. They make motor control switches 2 circuit rated but I've never heard of a double pole rated that way". And that's Leviton speaking!!
I'm just trying to increase my knowledge and I do appreciate every one's input so please somebody find me a 2 circuit rated double pole switch!!!

404.8 Accessibility and Grouping.
(A) Location. All switches and circuit breakers used as
switches shall be located so that they may be operated from
a readily accessible place. They shall be installed such that
the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch
ARTICLE 404—SWITCHES 404.8
2011 Edition NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE 70–267
or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more
than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform.
Exception No. 1: On busway installations, fused switches
and circuit breakers shall be permitted to be located at the
same level as the busway. Suitable means shall be provided
to operate the handle of the device from the floor.
Exception No. 2: Switches and circuit breakers installed
adjacent to motors, appliances, or other equipment that
they supply shall be permitted to be located higher than 2.0
m (6 ft 7 in.) and to be accessible by portable means.
Exception No. 3: Hookstick operable isolating switches
shall be permitted at greater heights.
(B) Voltage Between Adjacent Devices. A snap switch
shall not be grouped or ganged in enclosures with other
snap switches, receptacles, or similar devices, unless they
are arranged so that the voltage between adjacent devices
does not exceed 300 volts, or unless they are installed in
enclosures equipped with identified, securely installed barriers
between adjacent devices.
(C) Multipole Snap Switches. A multipole, general-use
snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than
a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a twocircuit
or three-circuit switch, or unless its voltage rating is
not less than the nominal line-to-line voltage of the system
supplying the circuits.
Informational Note: See 210.7 for disconnect requirements
where more than one circuit supplies a switch.
 
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