Tea brewer...

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chevyx92

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Wiring a Quiznos, plans call for a 120 volt 30 amp circuit for a tea brewer. Plans show it drawing 18 amps, so I understand the 30 amp circuit. But the brewer comes with a 120v 20 amp plug on it and nameplate says 18 amps. They say it will run all day. So being continuous 18 amps would require the 30 amp circuit but why does it have a 20 amp plug on the brewer? What should I do in this situation?
 
chevyx92 said:
Wiring a Quiznos, plans call for a 120 volt 30 amp circuit for a tea brewer. Plans show it drawing 18 amps, so I understand the 30 amp circuit. But the brewer comes with a 120v 20 amp plug on it and nameplate says 18 amps. They say it will run all day. So being continuous 18 amps would require the 30 amp circuit but why does it have a 20 amp plug on the brewer? What should I do in this situation?
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How do you know that this unit will operate continuously. If it cycles off for one second out of every 180 minutes it is not a continuous load. Besides how do you go about plugging in a 20 amp plug into a 30 amp receptacle? Cutting of the plug may violate it's listing and most probably would void any warranty.
 
chevy I'll bet it doesn't run all day at 18 amps, it probably cycles like a coffee machine and just keeps some low wattage heaters going the rest of the time.
 
chevyx92 said:
Wiring a Quiznos, plans call for a 120 volt 30 amp circuit for a tea brewer. Plans show it drawing 18 amps, so I understand the 30 amp circuit. But the brewer comes with a 120v 20 amp plug on it and nameplate says 18 amps. They say it will run all day. So being continuous 18 amps would require the 30 amp circuit but why does it have a 20 amp plug on the brewer? What should I do in this situation?
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I'd say that the plug configuration controls the receptacle choice: 20 amps. You can even use #10 wire. The real dilemma is the breaker selection:

Is it permissable to protect the receptacle with a 30a breaker? (210,21(B) says 'no'.) If not, how do you comply with the manufacturer's instructions?

My advice: run the #10 now, but use both a 20a breaker and receptacle. Then contact the manufacturer about this, and demand a free 30a cord, unless they can supply a 30a receptacle that fits the plug.
 
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Not sure what I would do.

Read 210.21(B)(3) and 210.23 and you will find Table 210.21(B)(3) does not apply to single receptacle circuits.

I think I might just wire it as directed and send in an RFI as a way of documenting my thoughts.
 
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The designer likely saw the 18A load and decided it needed a 30A ckt, although 25 would have been ok, too.

Change the receptacle and breaker to 20A and don't worry about this NON-continuous load.
 
"Read 210.21(B)(3) and 210.23 and you will find Table 210.21(B)(3) does not apply to single receptacle circuits."

agree, but
would 210.21(B)1 not cover this situation.
30 amp ckt = 30 amp recept.
 
210.23 "......an individual branch shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated....."

If it is rated at 20 amps and the brewer is 18 amps the 20 amp circuit should be fine. I would run # 10 from a 20 ocpd to a single receptacle ratedat 20 amps.

we can not protect the IBC at 30 amps and use a 20 amp receptacle and be in compliance ..... on the other we are told ,

in 110.3(b)

"Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

So damnned if you do ,.... and damnned if you do.

Contact U.L. and the folks who made this brewer.
 
If its got a 20A plug, I say it gets a 20A circuit. The manufacturers know the code, and if its got UL approval, it must be OK on a 20A circuit. I also agree with the comment above about it being non-continuous. It will have a thermostat that will cycle the heat on and off even though the brewer is always on.

Sometimes good information is hard to come by when doing the plans. Often, the exact model isn't known yet. And if it is, the cut sheets are often vauge. It may have said "18 Amps", but not mentioned it has a 20A plug. So the engineer probably used the worst case 30A circuit to avoid the posibility of a change order.

If I were you, I would confirm the 20A with the engineer. But I think chances are, you are going to get to install a 20A circuit that you bid as a 30A circuit.
 
This is not the first such restaurant opened in this country. I seriously doubt that this particular tea brewer is different from the ones being used in the other restaurants. Therefore, I infer that the ratings (including the plug's rating) were knowable, before the plans were issued. My conclusions are (1) That the plans contain a technical error, and (2) That the person issuing the plans should have known better.

You cannot install a 30 amp branch circuit without the receptacle(s) being rated at 30 amps. You cannot plug a 20 amp cord cap into a 30 amp receptacle. Therefore, you cannot proceed with the installation that is shown on the plans.

I like the solution of installing a 20 amp branch circuit with #10 conductors and with a 20 amp receptacle. But whatever you do, get a written change to your contract (it need not be for extra money, just for clarification of your instructions).
 
charlie b said:
You cannot install a 30 amp branch circuit without the receptacle(s) being rated at 30 amps.
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Charlie do you have a code section in mind?

210.21(B)(3) and 210.23 seem to imply you can if it is a single receptacle circuit.
 
Unless there are two or more receptacles , 210.21(3) does not apply.

210.21(b)(1) A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.

If this is a single receptacle on an IBC rated at 30 amps it would require a 30 amp receptacle.

If it were a twenty amp rated individual branch circuit a 30 amp receptacle would meet the wording ,... "not less than" it does not say it can't be greater than ,... it just can't be less than if there is only one receptacle.

At least that's what I think to be true.
 
M. D. said:
If it were a twenty amp rated individual branch circuit a 30 amp receptacle would meet the wording ,... "not less than" it does not say it can't be greater than ,... it just can't be less than if there is only one receptacle.
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That point is moot, since the appliance came with a 20-amp-plug-equipped cord.
 
I posted that because I thought that was what Bob was thinking. Thats all.

I can't see how this was not cought by those at U.L.???

Unless 110.3 (b) relieves the electrician from 210 or vice versa there is no way to comply with both and both are mandatory, the word "shall" appears in both sections.
 
To me, the discrepancy is between the plug supplied and the attached instructions. Again, I say contact the manufacturer for the NEC-compliant solution.
 
LarryFine said:
To me, the discrepancy is between the plug supplied and the attached instructions. Again, I say contact the manufacturer for the NEC-compliant solution.
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I agree that this should be done, but I think it should be done by the person who developed the plans. I would say that the EC's job is to alert the owner to the problem, to suggest a reasonable alternative, and to request instructions.
 
I think when this brewer went to U.L. , part of the listing and labeling included the instructions for installation and use . I would contact both.
 
charlie b said:

I agree that this should be done, but I think it should be done by the person who developed the plans. I would say that the EC's job is to alert the owner to the problem, to suggest a reasonable alternative, and to request instructions.
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Agreed. When I say something like "contact the manufacturer", I'm not necessarily saying that the electrician is the one who should do so, just that it should be done.

I, however, tend to be the one who ends up doing this, as much for getting it right the first time as anything else. You ever had a phone conversation through a third person? Or via email?


M. D. said:
I think when this brewer went to U.L. , part of the listing and labeling included the instructions for installation and use . I would contact both.
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I would use the threat of calling UL when dealing with the manufacturer. "So, do you want to call UL, or should I?"
 
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