"Terra-Dome" house

[electricmanscott]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I bailed. Talked to homeowner who is hiring the subs and seemingly acting as the GC. One word , clueless. She has no Idea how the job will go together and was very surprised when I told her the job is very time consuming and expensive compared to conventional construction. "It should be easier and faster because you just pull the wires through the conduit..." :roll: I told her that only a MA licensed electrican could install the conduit and same goes for the service. She insisited that "We are allowed to bring power to the house". Of course I said she is not. She suggested Terra Dome might bring an electrician with them from Missouri and I told her they need a MA license blah blah blah. Told her I was going to pass and good luck. The site is not far from my house and I will be checking in on this at some point to see what's going on.

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Thanks for the update Scott and I brought your post up to some work buddies who reminded me of some jobs I did myself.

A company from down south sold a semi pre-fab "Clean Room" to a research company in Woburn MA and was busy installing it along with the wiring.

When the electrical inspector came to the job to look at other work going on in the same area he saw the clean room going in. immediately they where stopped and they ended up hiring us to complete the wiring portion of the job.

I have also worked for a contractor out of Alabama who was going around the country doing work in Wal-marts. He said MA was the only place he got 'caught'.

He was also very upset that we charged premium time for the night work and that I get my 8 hours even if I was done in 4.

 

[hurk27]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

By Scott: only a MA licensed electrician could install the conduit and same goes for the service

Scott does MA. allow manufactured housing/modulars?

If they do how do they get by with non-electricians installing wiring in them?
This could be the loop hole they might be trying to use. I know here in Indiana installers of manufactured/modular housing can preform most hookups and even install the service. But they do have to have a manufactured housing installers licenses to do these installs. And some manufactures are exempt from this when the installation will be inspected by HUD.
Just a thought

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Wayne manufactured housing/modulars wired in other States are fine with the proper listings or approvals.

Wire it here and you gotta have a license.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Perhaps she is doing this under an owner builder permit if you have them there.If so she could install the conduit but i would pass on pulling the wires

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Perhaps she is doing this under an owner builder permit if you have them there.

Yes we do, that would be the one exception to having a license that I am aware of.

She would still be subject to inspections.

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I'd make sure that your AHJ is aware of this project so he can keep an eye on it, too. He might find the construction "interesting".

 

[jimwalker]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I can just see all this 1/2 inch conduit with lots of kinks and then trying to pull #8 for the range .Every time i ever did a house for an owner builder i jacked the price up.They never once really had a clue of what was exspected of them so the extra charge was justified.Am sure in this case she will find some non licensed electrician to work under the table and before its over there will be a trip to big orange for wire mold

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Like I said I will be keeping an eye on this. I am not looking to play vigilante electrician but if I have to follow the rules everyone has to. As far as homeowner permits go I would not be part of a job that has the homeowner getting a permit for some of the work and myself the rest. I have more than enough work to keep me busy without additional headaches. Hey Bob I was getting a permit the other day and there was a notice that the inspector would not be issuing homeowner permits due to liability issues. I am not an advocate for homeowner permits but seems to me he is in violation of state law.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Duh, brilliant idea alert! I think I will call Terra Dome and get their take on the electrical work.

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I think you are going to see a homeowner learn a hard lesson. After looking a Terra-Domes site I think that they just show up with the forms and pour the concrete. I think they have a service to help with the plans but everything else is up to the owner. Maybe even all the site prep. work and permiting. Like any other sub-contractor, if their work passes inspection they get paid and the structure belongs to the owner. If a homeowner wants to act as a GC that's just to bad. Think about it, ever who does this job had better know a little about doing slab work. Everything will have to stub up in the right locations. No room for error. In industrial you can maybe run exposed. I'll bet these people don't have a clue about poured wall construction. They just read about it and thought it sounds nice. Same with those that want a log house, just don't know what they are in for.

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Growler --

That's the same thing that I get out of it when I read Terra-Dome's web site. I don't think that they do anything but form, install rebar and blockouts and pour the concrete. They probably pour the footings, floor, walls and dome roof. I wonder how many joints that there will be, and how much of it is monolithic?

I think that everything else is the Owner's responsibility/problem -- the Owner can hire a "builder" to serve as the GC or they can try to do it themselves.

I think that the $25 charge for each electrical box is for their anchoring the boxes to their form so it isn't lost in the pour.

I'll bet that the Owner/Builder is responsible for all permits, excavation/backfill, waterproofing, electrical, plumbing, gas, HVAC, interior finishes, etc. -- Everything except the concrete envelope.

It looks to me like they are selling the owner a set of plans and a poured concrete shell.

If that is the case, they will want to get on-and-off the job ASAP, so they will be covering up the electrician and anything else that goes in the walls or floor if you aren't right there when you are needed. The plumber will have problems, too.

With the Owner serving as her own builder, you can bet that coordination and sequencing will go right out of the window. She will do well to just get the plumbing in right -- I hope her floor elevation allows for enough sewer fall or they'll need a small lift station. Most of the electrical will probably end up running surface mounted.

Do the interior walls go all the way up to the roof dome, or do they stop at 8'?

If they put this very deep into the ground, then I hope they don't run into ground water, high water table and waterproofing problems. It could turn into a large indoor pool. I wonder if they have had a soil study done?

It could be pretty nifty if they have thought everything through -- otherwise, it could be a disaster. Sounds like it will probably be a slow-motion train wreck to me.


Scott --

1. How is this being built in relation to the existing grade?

2. Letting the AHJ know about this project isn't being a vigilante. The AHJ's I know would kick my butt if I knew about a project like this and didn't let them know about it -- in case the owner tried to build all of it without getting permits, licensed contractors, meeting code or getting inspections. They would not be happy with me if I didn't say anything to them -- they would view me as an accessory to the crime. And as you said, whoever installs the electrical work should have to follow all of the same rules that you have to if you were doing the work. The playing field should be level. Home owners often try to circumvent building codes to try to save money, but without understanding why those codes are there in the first place -- they usually come to regret it.

3. Be sure and let us know what Terra-Dome tells you.

[ June 21, 2005, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: tx2step ]

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

growler and tx2step I am entirely confused why you do not think Terra dome is planing on running the conduits?

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
One of the things I find questionable in the specs is the builder will be installing all conduit in the concrete walls.

The builder in this case I fully believe is Terra Dome.

If you where Terra Dome and you where sending workers out to pour these walls you would not want holdups by the local electrical contractor.

Also $25 per opening for just an empty box installed by laborers seems entirely plausible to me.

It will be intresting to see what Scott finds out.

 

[petersonra]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Regardless of the particular laws in the state of MA, the whole thing sounds like a decent design to me, if you want to live in an earth sheltered home. The company may have a problem with the state's onerous licensing laws, but that is a different matter.

From the little information I was able to glean from their web site, I think you get a concrete shell when they are done, and the finish work is your (meaning the HO's) problem.

Somehow $25 to put an electrical box inside a poured concrete structure sounds reasonable to me, since you would not have to worry a whole lot about it being pretty or supporting it that much.

I do think the HO is going to get a rude awakening though when she realizes what she has gotten herself into, especially being in a state where the government feels it has the right to order it's citizens around at will.

It may be that the company is used to more reasonable states and doesn't know about MA's insane licensing laws for this type of thing. In my mind, this is close to a pre-manufactured house and ought to be handled that way by the AHJ. What's the difference if you build it in a factory in another state and ship it there (which apparently would be acceptable) or build a small factory in MA and do the work there (which is really what they are doing)?

[ June 21, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

$25 sounds reasonable. What this really means is that if you have 100 boxes for receptacles, switches and lights. You set boxes and pipe in, including the slab, all home runs for $2500.00. I guess I'll have to do the only reasonable thing and call a sales rep. for Terra-Dome.

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I enjoy talking about things that I know nothing about as much as the next person. So, I had to break down and call a sales Rep. I may run into one of these structures in the future and don't want to be ignorant of the facts. From what I was able to find out the Terra-Dome Corporation roughs the walls & ceiling and stubs out at the footing. That means that all home runs and interior walls would be done by the electrician. This could actually be a good thing, back-charge them for any mistakes made or tell the homeowner to get stuffed( you didn't do it ). I still don't think this will be as easy as a normal wood frame house and would have to be bid as commercial work. I think for the right money it could be an interesting job. I would check out the corporation at the Missouri SOS site before getting involved. I have not always had good luck with out of state contractors. Have really enjoyed this post. ( fear of the unknown ).

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Growler -- Awwww you called and asked? Where is the fun in that? Now we don't have nearly as much to speculate about. Shucks!

Does Terra-Dome pour the floor, too? Or do they leave that to the owner so they can get all of their underfloor services in at a leisurely rate?

I wonder what conduit system that they use? I'll bet that they use ENT (electrical nonmetalic tubing) and have laborers install it.

I presume that they stub-out at places where an interior wall is supposed to go? Or do they stub-out below the floor slab so the electrician can tie on and finish the runs under the slab?


iwire --

I was just guessing. But usually in specs, the builder would be considered the GC. Terra-Dome isn't acting as a GC; but more like a specialty concrete sub.

If they wrote the spec, then I figured that statements concerning the "builder" would refer to the GC or they would have just said "will be installed by Terra-Dome".

Also, I couldn't imagine that they wouldn't run into licensing problems pretty often, and so would avoid the headaches and liability by avoiding the electrical work.

Terra-Dome would run into licensing problems in the states I mainly do things in right now, too -- Texas and Oklahoma. Both of those states would require that the conduit be installed by licensed electricians and a licensed Contractor, since the work is being performed on-site. If it was prefabed and shipped in it wouldn't be an issue, but it is being poured in place on-site, so licensing would be required.

And it's not as though they wouldn't get caught, since every project has to be finished by a local electrician. That should trigger an inspection and questions from the AHJ.

Anyway, that is the fun of speculating about something without having too many facts -- you get to over-think the situation.


I'd like to see one of these things built.

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by tx2step:
iwire --

I was just guessing. But usually in specs, the builder would be considered the GC. Terra-Dome isn't acting as a GC; but more like a specialty concrete sub.

I agree that is usally the case I just did not believe that was the case this time.

tx2step and growler it has been fun talking about what we do not know.

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by petersonra:
It may be that the company is used to more reasonable states and doesn't know about MA's insane licensing laws for this type of thing.

Please explain this to me Bob.

The licensed electricians in MA both Union and non-union had to work 4 years as apprentices and attend school than pass a long test to earn the right to install electrical systems.

Why should a company only by virtue of being from out of town get to skip this requirement?

We do still allow homeowners to pull a permit and perform electric work in their own home.

I can not leave an apprentice on a job alone running conduit why should Terra Dome get to have laborers install conduit?

Also conduits need to be inspected before being concealed.

I just do not understand your view on this.

 

[petersonra]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I would be willing to bet a totally untrained person with some mechanical skills could learn to do the type of electrical work being discussed here in a few days.

We are not even talking wiring.

I realize you have your rules and all, but it seems excessive to require that type of skill level for this type of application.