"Terra-Dome" house

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

"Petersonra", before I was discussing the feasibility of doing the job for profit and some of the others were discussing the legality of the project. But to say that it's not right to place restrictions on who can do certain jobs........
Those rules were not made by electrical contractors, they were passed at state level for public safety. Even as an engineer you would not be allowed to do the work because you are not licensed and insured ( unless you are contractor on the side ). It's not so much skill level as responsibility. If you assume the liability you want to get every dollar you can. That concrete company is listing labor at $35.00 pr. hr. for extra's. To move into the electrical field at those prices is wrong. When out in the field I see many problems that I could repair, I don't because I'm not a plumber or A/C technician. The shoe maker should stick to his last.

 

[petersonra]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

no offense intended, but in fact having this type of electrical work done by less highly trained persons does not put anyone in jeopardy nor does it release any one from responsibility for the work they actually do.

i won't argue over what the law is in MA. I'm sure you are accurately reflecting what the law is. It just seems to me to be silly to require a highly skilled electrician to do this type of work that could be very safely done by a common labourer at a much lower cost.

these are the kind of things that drive people to less skilled persons that will do work that is beyond their capability and does cause safety risks.

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Ok, you are right in principal. There is no reason to have a highly trained electrician do the work. That's why that the contractor in MA will have a helper do most of the work. It's grunt work. As a master electrician from another state I would not be allowed to start the job. When you go to the dentist, doesn't he have assistants do a lot of the work. You don't have to be genius to clean teeth, but you must be supervised by a Doctor. Either you or the company you work for has an engineering seal. Do you slap a seal on for anyone that comes in with a set of plans. They may know exactly what they are doing but no seal. The point is, someone is going to make some money on the job. Should it be someone from MA or MO. With all the out sourcing of engineering jobs I would think you would get the point. Or you could go to work tomorrow and ask for less money.

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by petersonra:
I realize you have your rules and all, but it seems excessive to require that type of skill level for this type of application.

Bob -- it's a little more complicated than that. Electrical Contractors, Masters and Journeymen have spent years on their skills, education and licensing. The ECs have built a business based on performing code compliant, licensed work. They call the AHJ out to inspect their work. They have a significant investment to protect. If you let unlicensed, unqualified people perform work for the public (not on their own house) for work that the State says they must be licensed to perform, then where does it end? At what point is it too complicated for a laborer to perform? What electrical work can an unqualified laborer do and what work can't they do? Who takes the responsibility? Who calls the AHJ to have that work inspected? Who decides?

The State has already decided (in most states) by saying that unless you are personally doing your own work on your own home (for which you take your own personal risks), then all electrical work must be performed by licensed electricians working for a licensed, insured Contractor. Of course there are exceptions (industrial plant electricians, etc.) but that doesn't apply here.

Why should these guys be different, just because it would complicate or slow down their work process a little to have to wait for a licensed electrician to do the conduit work before they can pour? What if they use the wrong type of conduit, fittings or boxes? What if they use a standard 4-O box where a ceiling fan goes? What if they have too many bends to pull the wire, or the conduit is kinked? They assume liability that they aren't licensed for, and maybe not insured for. By the time any of this would come to light, they will be paid-off and gone out-of-state.

I realize that you aren't an electrical contractor and often have a different view of things. Try to look at it from an electrical contractor's point of view. What if you owned an electrical business where this was being done and needed the work to keep your qualified and licensed people employed? Would you be as understanding and tolerant then?

If the State says that certain work must be designed and stamped by a licensed PE, then how is it different if a builder tells one of his laborers -- here, follow this old set of plans and transfer all of those lines, symbols and stuff to these new drawings for this new project. If you're not sure what to do, just guess and it'll be OK -- it's not that important. And while you are at it, sketch up your own PE stamp and put it on those new drawings. This shouldn't take you more than a couple of days -- then get back in that ditch and start digging again. How do you think all of the licensed PEs in the state would feel about that? Do you think that they would complain?

OK, sorry, I know I'm a little over the top, here, but this kind of unlicensed work aggravates me. It takes money out of men's pockets that have spent years becoming educated and licensed, just because it is easier, cheaper and more expedient for someone like Terra Dome.

 

[iwire]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

growler, tx2step, Great posts, I tried to respond but found my views where coming across biased as I live in MA.

Bob, some pipe work can be installed with little to no skill, no question about it.

However the laying out and plaining of the installation does take skill.

We are not taking about running EMT across bar joist which if a mistake is made can be easily and cheaply repaired.

We are taking about poured in place work.

Is the home owner really better off having unskilled personnel install the conduits?

These out of state workers have no motivation to do a good job, they are not stuck trying to make it work later even if Terra-Dome takes financial responsibility for repairs.

If they do make a mistake, say a coupling is left loose and separated during the pour now what?

The home owner has to either slow the job down and break up a new wall or accept surface raceway.

I have worked with refrigeration mechanics that are excellent electrical troubleshooters and have taught me a thing or to, I have a lot of respect for them. That does not change the fact that the word 'electrician' is reserved for those of us who are licensed.

All that said, having a license is not always an indication of skill level, only an indication of commitment.

[ June 22, 2005, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by petersonra:
It just seems to me to be silly to require a highly skilled electrician to do this type of work that could be very safely done by a common labourer at a much lower cost.

Bob, this is just hilarious, no offense intended.

We're on page three of the postings of probably nearly 100 years of combined experience saying, "Jeez, that'll be tricky. Ooo, somebody could lose their shirt."

You pop in and say it involves no skill?

I sure would not enjoy being forced to do this job alone, pressured for time, accurately. I think I'm pretty good at undergrounds, but I still take due time out to study the prints very closely when laying out a slab. Now we have a slab in three dimensions. I'm flat not qualified for this, despite having a license that says otherwise.

Now a guy digging a ditch is going to hop in and do a good job? Ha ha ha ha haa.

I'm not offended, I hope you're not, but it's kind of a funny perspective.

 

[petersonra]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Maybe I am missing something here.

What I see is a guy stringing corrugated tubing inside existing rebar from point A to point B, and snapping on a plastic box at one end according to plans developed by someone else. Then he goes back and secures the tubing to the rebar.

This does not sound like rocket science to me.

And quite frankly, from the comments I have read by other posters, it is not about safety or quality of workmanship. It's that they are afraid they will lose out financially to someone doing it for less cost. That tells me what it's really all about.

[ June 22, 2005, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

"Bob"... While ENT (Smurf Tubing) may be legal to use it is not the product of choice for most electricians. Most people have been on a job where some idiot thought it was allright to put 3000 degrees of bends and kinks in the tubing. Try pulling wire after that. I don't and wont use the stuff. If someone mentions Smurf, I leave. Try going to www.aea.org and see how your fellow engineers feel about being replaced by cheaper help. I see people all the time trying to use the cheaper option and they usually pay twice as much.

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Bob -- you must be on the government committee that sets policy for (not) controlling illegal emigration, too.

You are probably a great engineer.

But you obviously don't understand or appreciate the realities and difficulties of trying to run an electrical contracting business.

Of course there are financial considerations involved -- duhh. (Isn't that really the whole point of your argument and objections?) Electrical contractors aren't in business for their health. I believe that financial considerations are valid, as are all of the other issues that others have pointed out.

I believe that this work should be installed by local licensed apprentices, working for a local licensed contractor, supervised by a local licensed journeyman electrician. Not by laborers in town for just a few days from another state.

How else are the local apprentices supposed to learn? Where do you think electricians come from? Do you really think that these out-of-state laborers will become licensed journeymen electricians in 4 years?

Are you really in favor of not following rules, standards or laws, just because it's cheaper or more convenient and most of the time it works and no one gets hurt?

Do you really believe that it's right for the local established EC's to have to follow the rules and laws, but that it's OK for an out-of-state contractor to come in and not have to follow those same rules and laws, just because it is easier and cheaper for them to just ignore them?

Are you just playing the devil's advocate here?

I'm not trying to offend you. I'm just trying to understand why you refuse to see, and try to invalidate, our point of view.

[ June 22, 2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]

 

[coulter]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I absolutely agree with George. This is getting pretty funny. My comments are not meant to be mean, I'm just trying to point out how some of the things I'm hearing could sound.

Growler -

Just a couple of questions:

Originally posted by growler:
... Most people have been on a job where some idiot thought it was allright to put 3000 degrees of bends and kinks in the tubing. Try pulling wire after that. ...

What would be the difference between installing ENT improperly and installing any other wiring method improperly? Either way it's not per code and proboably unworkable. Just out of curiousity, this "idiot", would that have been a licensed electrician?

Here's a radical thought. How about if the apprentices pay for their education same as I did for mine? Just a thought - nothing I would advocate.


carl

[ June 22, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: coulter ]

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Carl...So you quick fixed a problem in an MMC room with a raised floor and now you think Smurf tubing is the greatest thing since sliced bread. First I would like to know if you were in charge of the original installation ( bundled and not to code ), someone sure saved money there. Second, have you been back to check the condition of the old smurf tubing lately. Many engineers look for a cheap short term solution these days. In the past there was a word for that kind of fix and I don't mean Kluge. As far as paying for education, you trained on the job just like everyone else. College just taught you how to learn ( the basics ).

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Against my better judgement, I'll take another shot at trying to explain. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to be mean or offensive, either. But I think that these types of philosophical issues do matter (or I wouldn't bother).

Originally posted by coulter:

Originally posted by tx2step:
... How else are the local apprentices supposed to learn? ...

I am absolutely in favor of apprentices. However, the idea of not... provide a training ground for apprentices to learn conduit, smacks of milking a job. That I wouldn't be in favor of.

carl

Carl -- Regardless of the conduit method utilized, the conduit should be installed by licensed apprentices or journeymen electricians -- not unlicensed laborers. I think I've been clear that that is my main issue.

If it is installed by an apprentice as part of a total electrical bid for the whole project, then the end cost to the homeowner will be very little (if any) more.

I fail to see how allowing this work to be installed by unlicensed laborers from out-of-state does anything to serve the interests of the homeowner, the public, or our profession.

If the conduit and boxes installed don't pass inspection or if one of the conduits is full of concrete, Terra-Dome will be long gone. You know as well as I do that you are unlikely to get them back to fix the problem unless you sue them. Right... sue an out-of-state contractor over a low dollar claim. Not likely.

If I wanted to give a bid for completing this project after Terra-Dome had already installed this work, I wouldn't finalize a price until the work already performed was inspected and passed by the AHJ and it had been demonstrated that all of the conduits were usable. My bid to the owner would be higher, and the end total cost of the electrical work to the owner would be higher than if I had done the entire electrical work. Everyone loses except Terra-Dome, who did the work illegally.

You don't address why it is right for the local electrical contractors to have to live by the state licensing and inspection laws, but an out-of-state contractor shouldn't have to. Please explain?

Originally posted by coulter:


Here's a radical thought. How about if the apprentices pay for their education same as I did for mine? Just a thought - nothing I would advocate. Maybe the reason the apprentices are paid is because they are actually performing work, not setting behind a desk in an air conditioned classroom?

And they do pay for their education. They start out doing hard work for low pay, and it takes several years before they work up to a good wage. It will take them several more years of hard work, study and experience before they are on an earning level comparable with you. But if they are ambitious and smart, they can do that and more.

If you count the cost of your education (you really did pay entirely for all of that yourself, right?) plus the years that you weren't earning a paycheck, then an ambitious guy might actually be ahead of you the whole way. I probably know a few, as a matter of fact.

I'm not trying to offend you, but you seem to place more value on your education than on theirs. They have chosen a different profession and a different method of education than you. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not an engineer, or an attorney, or a CPA -- when I need one, I hire one.

[ June 23, 2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: tx2step ]

 

[coulter]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

growler

Originally posted by growler:
... So you quick fixed a problem in an MMC room with a raised floor and now you think Smurf tubing is the greatest thing since sliced bread. ...

No. I think if a product meets spec for use and reliability, is safe, meets code, and is cost effective, then it is the right material to use. Just because someone doesn't like it isn't too high on my list of criteria - although I always listen to why they don't - mostly cause I don't have all the answers and work at learning.

Originally posted by growler:
...First I would like to know if you were in charge of the original installation ( bundled and not to code ), someone sure saved money there. ...

No. Amazingly that happened before my watch. Not that I couldn't have screwed that up. That method is okay for large computer rooms not MCC rooms. It looked safe and reliable - just didn't happen to meet code. And I'm not in favor of not meeting code.

Originally posted by growler:
... Second, have you been back to check the condition of the old smurf tubing lately. ...

I saw some of the first installed about 5 years later. Look the same as the day they went in.

Originally posted by growler:
... Many engineers look for a cheap short term solution these days. ...

I can't tell you what "many" do. I can tell you I look for solutions that, "meets spec for use and reliability, is safe, meets code, and is cost effective"

Originally posted by growler:
... In the past there was a word for that kind of fix and I don't mean Kluge. ...

Can't help on your choice of words.

Originally posted by growler:
As far as paying for education, you trained on the job just like everyone else. College just taught you how to learn ( the basics ).

That's true. I paid for the first four years. And I don't think the companies feathered the jobs to pay for my training. Except one company had to show a training budget in bidding some government jobs. Go figure, our Federal Government at work. And like I said earlier, I'm absolutely in favor of apprenticeship programs.

carl

 

[coulter]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

tx -

I think I was responding to what sounded like an unfounded bias against a product that has its uses and meets code - including that part of the bias that really sounds like, "I don't like it cause it's cutting into my pocket."

Originally posted by tx2step:
... I'm not trying to offend you, ...

Thank you. I'd hate to see the comments had you been trying

carl

 

[petersonra]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

so far I have heard nothing that refutes my basic presumption that the real objection to having this out of state contractor install some ent is that it will take the work from the local contractors.

if it is just about money, than why not do it the least exepnsive workable way?

btw, I am not advocating that someone should violate the local laws in MA. just questioning why those laws should apply in this particular case. I think from the responses I got, it's quite clear why.

this is basically the same argument the local electricians union (and ECs as well) used against allowing romex back in the 70s in my area. the test of time has proven that romex is a perfectly safe wiring method. and all those people forced to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars extra for their homes back then gained nothing, so that a very few poeple could benfit financially.

 

[growler]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I'm one electrician that will admit to being a protectionist. I don't believe in bringing in illegal outside labor no matter how cost effective. I don't know what materials would have been used by the local contractors in the MA area. But I do know that the cheapest workable method would be to put the job out for bid among local qualified contractors that are licensed, insured and familiar with local codes. These contractors have a physical location in the area and the come under state and local authority. If these out of state contractors come in under a Owner Build Permit, it's very hard to take disciplinary action againt them if something is wrong. As far as cost savings, I have yet to see an engineer sit down and figure out the savings for the company if he were replaced by foreign labor ( H1-B or L-1 Visa sponsored ). I believe the saying goes " cast the moat from thy own eye ". We could advocate using more highly trained , less expensive foreign trained engineers but EC's and union members would never do that because we know what happens when you roll a snow ball down hill. If you really buy-in to the cheaper is better theory there will always be a job as spokes person for Wall Mart. By the way, the device known as a " growler" never actually worked but it was made in America by Americans.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

I can't tell you what "many" do. I can tell you I look for solutions that, "meets spec for use and reliability, is safe, meets code, and is cost effective"

The most important part of "cost effective" is missed by many. That term must include the overall costs over the life of the installation. In many cases this is only based on the initial material or equipment price, not including the installation, operation or maintenance costs. I'm not saying that this applies here, but I know of many cases where a $100 savings on the equipment cost, resulted in a much greater increase in the installation and operation costs.
Don

 

[coulter]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
... The most important part of "cost effective" is missed by many. That term must include the overall costs over the life of the installation. ...

No news here. The principles of "Life Cycle Cost" and RCM, (Reliability Centered Maintenance) have been around for quite a while. Some of the companies I have worked for follow them and some don't. I generally don't attempt to beat company philosophy into submission.

carl

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Carl,

The principles of "Life Cycle Cost" and RCM, (Reliability Centered Maintenance) have been around for quite a while.

It appears to me that as more and more companies are run by 'bean counters" who only see this months or this quarters numbers, that concept is rapidly disappearing. These people and many stock holders don't have any concept of long term profits and only look to the current numbers. These attitudes along with the concept of outsourcing, are destroying our economy.
Don

[ June 23, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[tx2step]

Re: "Terra-Dome" house

Don -- I totally agree with you!

Originally posted by petersonra:
...if it is just about money, than why not do it the least exepnsive workable way?

Bob -- I give up. I've explained that it is more complicated than that. Cost is just one of the various issues.

Bottom line -- If Terra-Dome wants to perform electrical work (or plumbing or HVAC or any other craft that requires licensing) on their structures, then they should be licensed (for doing that type of work) in each of the states that they work in, and they should do the work with people that are licensed in the state they are performing the work in. They should get permits and call for inspections just like everyone else. What makes them special or exempt?

It's simply about having a level playing field, equal competition, being qualified and licensed and complying with applicable codes and complying with the law. If they will do that, I have no complaint.

You baffle me as to why all of the various parts and nuances of the puzzle go over your head and you simply center in on the issues of (1) absolute lowest initial cost possible and (2) why should the laws apply in this case.

Try to look at the bigger picture.

Just where do you draw the line? How many companies, doing what kind of projects and what kind of work, should be allowed to roam the country, performing work that they are not licensed to do, using people that are not licensed to do the work, not getting permits, not having their work inspected, etc. All in violation to various state laws. What is the point of having laws? At what threshold do you think that laws should apply?

If you don't get that concept, then I give up.

I believe that a few states require licensing to perform concrete work. Would you also advocate that they shouldn't have to comply with those laws either?

[ June 23, 2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]