Tesla PwrWall/Gateway shutdowns

[jaggedben]

You can't protect against everything and the closer you get to 100% the more expensive it gets. 90%, 99%, 99.9%...How many nines would you like to buy?

My point is that I'd like to know how many I'm buying. So I can judge the price. Or, if I'm selling, I'm clear how many I'm taking responsibility for.

 

[caribconsult]

When dismounted, what is the overall depth? I'd guess 4-5"...

Do you mean the thickness of the panels? It's closer to 1.25" or so and that's the frame. The actual panel is probably an inch or less. I hope this is what you were asking.

 

[gadfly56]

Do you mean the thickness of the panels? It's closer to 1.25" or so and that's the frame. The actual panel is probably an inch or less. I hope this is what you were asking.

Yep, that's it. I'll see what I can do over the weekend.

 

[caribconsult]

If I installed in that area, I'd be punctilious about the design wind speeds on my installs. If I were you, I'd ask the installer to provide that to me, along with detailed info on how they arrived at the number and spacing of attachments, and other details. Either that, or verify it was stamped by a structural engineer who can be held liable if it fails. Obviously he's not held liable if he designed it to a legally applicable code and then a storm comes along that exceeds the applicable wind speed. Stamped or not stamped, you should know what wind speed it was designed for.

Wind speeds: during Maria, we had speeds of up to 140mph here. The wood balcony roof you can see in the shot that goes all around the building withstood it with no damage. We build stuff strong here. As you can see, the panels sit in a sort of well formed by the balcony roof and barely project above the roof line. It would have to be a north wind to get under the panels, and the mountain range you see in the distance protects us a bit from northern winds. South or West winds would tend to push the panel towards the roof, rather than lift them, I think. I could be very wrong here...I"m no weather expert by no means!

I don't think the installers paid any attention to wind speeds. They made sure the panels faced south, were tilted appropriately, and wired nicely. The rack is 1/8" or 3/16" alum angle, screwed together and bolted to our 5" thick concrete roof with concrete anchors embedded in epoxy. I don't think they'll come loose. Here's a shot from during construction.
View attachment 20876
So if a big storm were coming the panels would have to come down and I'll figure that out. If it's a lesser storm, some protection from flying coconuts and such would be good. I'm thinking sheets of 2" styrofoam, heavily duct-taped to the panels.

Any other ideas to protect?
Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

Jeff

 

[jaggedben]

Wind speeds: during Maria, we had speeds of up to 140mph here. The wood balcony roof you can see in the shot that goes all around the building withstood it with no damage. We build stuff strong here. As you can see, the panels sit in a sort of well formed by the balcony roof and barely project above the roof line. It would have to be a north wind to get under the panels, and the mountain range you see in the distance protects us a bit from northern winds. South or West winds would tend to push the panel towards the roof, rather than lift them, I think. I could be very wrong here...I"m no weather expert by no means!

I don't think the installers paid any attention to wind speeds. They made sure the panels faced south, were tilted appropriately, and wired nicely. The rack is 1/8" or 3/16" alum angle, screwed together and bolted to our 5" thick concrete roof with concrete anchors embedded in epoxy. I don't think they'll come loose. Here's a shot from during construction.
View attachment 20876
So if a big storm were coming the panels would have to come down and I'll figure that out. If it's a lesser storm, some protection from flying coconuts and such would be good. I'm thinking sheets of 2" styrofoam, heavily duct-taped to the panels.

Any other ideas to protect?
Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

Jeff

Design wind speed with solar is mostly a factor of pullout strength on each mount. So for example, if you have 24" rafter spacing, and you use every other rafter (4ft spacing) instead of every third rafter, you can increase your wind speed design significantly. You also upsize the strength of the mounting rail if necessary. It looks like they used 4ft spacing so that's good. I wonder if there are one or two lag screws on each attachment. (I also wonder why there doesn't appear to be any waterproofing on the attachments.) While I'm not familiar with the racking system I see in your picture, if the manufacturer offers good guidelines then it should not be too difficult to determine the design wind speed. The one I use (Ironridge) has online tools to automatically calculate it. I can choose a wind speed anywhere from 110mph to 180mph and it would tell me what my attachment spacing and rail strength would need to be for the rail. I can also get uplift force for each attachment and compare that to what my attachments are rated for. If the roof frame is to code that's all I do. If it might not be to code we either get an engineer to calculate it, or we reinforce the roof frame.

 

[gadfly56]

Design wind speed with solar is mostly a factor of pullout strength on each mount. So for example, if you have 24" rafter spacing, and you use every other rafter (4ft spacing) instead of every third rafter, you can increase your wind speed design significantly. You also upsize the strength of the mounting rail if necessary. It looks like they used 4ft spacing so that's good. I wonder if there are one or two lag screws on each attachment. (I also wonder why there doesn't appear to be any waterproofing on the attachments.) While I'm not familiar with the racking system I see in your picture, if the manufacturer offers good guidelines then it should not be too difficult to determine the design wind speed. The one I use (Ironridge) has online tools to automatically calculate it. I can choose a wind speed anywhere from 110mph to 180mph and it would tell me what my attachment spacing and rail strength would need to be for the rail. I can also get uplift force for each attachment and compare that to what my attachments are rated for. If the roof frame is to code that's all I do. If it might not be to code we either get an engineer to calculate it, or we reinforce the roof frame.

Which part of "5" thick concrete roof" did you not understand? :?

 

[caribconsult]

Design wind speed with solar is mostly a factor of pullout strength on each mount. So for example, if you have 24" rafter spacing, and you use every other rafter (4ft spacing) instead of every third rafter, you can increase your wind speed design significantly. You also upsize the strength of the mounting rail if necessary. It looks like they used 4ft spacing so that's good. I wonder if there are one or two lag screws (our roof isn't wood) on each attachment..........

4' spacing sounds about right. There's one concrete anchor about 4.5" long on each foot of the rack, and they coated the anchor and filled the drilled hole with epoxy before torquing it down. We've seen no leaks inside. I'd say each of these mounts could withstand at least 2-300lbs of pullout before the concrete crumbled. Just a guess...I have no way to measure this. I think the probability of the wind carrying off the panels is low because if it looks like we're in for a bad one, down they come.

I'm more concerned with collision protection if we leave them up during a lesser storm. So far, the best idea I've had is to cut some Styrofoam to the exact panel size and wrap the whole deal with plenty of duct tape. Tape and Styrofoam are cheap....way cheaper than replacing a panel smashed by a flying coconut. Got any better ideas?

 

[jaggedben]

Which part of "5" thick concrete roof" did you not understand? :?

Okay, that would just be 'which post where he said that did I totally miss or subsequently forgot about.' But thanks for the clarification.

The pull out strength for concrete anchors would be a subject I'd have to educate myself on.

 

[caribconsult]

We're cool. And yeah, although I'd left Louisiana before Katrina, I know what you mean. The Corps of Engineers and the Levee Board will most likely never be held accountable for their contribution to what went on in the Lower 9th in the days following the storm. Agreed. No one will be accountable for anything. Never. This is NOLA.

On a lighter note, here's a link to an article about something the company I work for has done in Haiti. I didn't go down there for the installation but I worked on the design:
https://www.mystatesman.com/busines...lives-haitian-orphans/NhJIB2n6YYXLn5v65kz1CN/

So I read with interest the Haiti project. What did you guys use for storage? Tesla? Marine? some other special battery? And what did you use for a controller? Just curious about other solutions besides Tesla. Theirs is pretty good but very complicated and must be fine-tuned, I think. Not to mention pricey, but it is good stuff. And if you reach the right person, as was the case for me, they can be very responsive to customer needs. It's not Tesla that I had the problems with, it was the installer company's lack of office procedure and failure to communicate on many levels that fouled things up. Once I got hold of the Tesla guy, the ball started to roll.

 

[jaggedben]

...
I'm more concerned with collision protection if we leave them up during a lesser storm. So far, the best idea I've had is to cut some Styrofoam to the exact panel size and wrap the whole deal with plenty of duct tape. Tape and Styrofoam are cheap....way cheaper than replacing a panel smashed by a flying coconut. Got any better ideas?

Don't really have a better idea. The panel glass will probably withstand impacts better than you expect. (There is, or was, a youtube video somewhere of a roof in Colorado after a storm of tennis ball sized hail. The solar panels on the roof were fine. The asphalt shingles were not, except for the ones under the panels. :happyyes

I'd be at least as worried about how vulnerable the inverters, cable, and racking would be without the panels there to provide a measure of protection and additional structural strength. (The panels act as additional two-dimensional cross bracing for the two rails and their supports.) So I think that leaving the panels there and covering them as you suggest would be a better idea than removing them.

 

[caribconsult]

Don't really have a better idea. The panel glass will probably withstand impacts better than you expect. (There is, or was, a youtube video somewhere of a roof in Colorado after a storm of tennis ball sized hail. The solar panels on the roof were fine. The asphalt shingles were not, except for the ones under the panels. :happyyes

I'd be at least as worried about how vulnerable the inverters, cable, and racking would be without the panels there to provide a measure of protection and additional structural strength. (The panels act as additional two-dimensional cross bracing for the two rails and their supports.) So I think that leaving the panels there and covering them as you suggest would be a better idea than removing them.

You make a very valid point about the additional structural rigidity offered by the panels. Similar to the function of the skin of an airplane wing, and I got your point loud and clear. There's no triangular bracing anywhere on the rack and it looks like you could just push it over from one end, but it really doesn't present much surface area to the wind. I would think flying objects would be more damaging. The inverters would be exposed, for sure. I wonder if they are waterproof? A call to the guy I met from Enphase, who installed the Envoy, should answer that but all the rest of the wiring downstream from the inverters all the way to the Tesla is in sealed tubing. I have yet to figure out how the panel-to-inverter connectors disconnect, but the Enphase guy can probably explain it, since the inverters are Enphase as well.

I would actually prefer not to take down the panels. I think they are pretty solidly mounted and low in the profile of the house, not sticking up in the jet stream, so the panels getting blown away by the wind is a possible but not probably scenario. Damage from flying objects would be much more likely. If the wind was strong enough to rip the panels off, I think we might be in for much bigger problems than missing solar panels, considering what happened here last September. So protecting the panels from impacts might be the target. What do you think of the styrofoam/duct tape idea? I wouldn't care if it all got ruined in a storm as long as no panels got broken. I can't say I'm nuts about it but it was the first thing that came to mind. Egg cartons might work but you'd need a boatload of them and then how do you mount them? Got any ideas?

Thanks for replying,

Jeff

 

[Chamuit]

I didn't see anyone say this. But are they sure all the connections are solid? The low voltage and line?

 

[caribconsult]

Resolved!

Resolved!

Thanks very much for your contribution here. I can tell you the wiring and connections have been checked and rechecked several times and no errors nor defective components were found.

Tesla's chief engineer for the Caribbean was here early July and I believe he unearthed the problem, which is that

(1) we are NOT full-time connected to the grid (no net metering....see previous posts on this thread for detailed explanation of why we do that way), and

(2) Tesla can access my system via internet, and they frequently issue upgrades and other adjustments (particularly in the case of a newly-installed system) that require a reboot, just like installing certain programs in a computer. When they reboot it while there's no grid attached, we get a brief shutdown as the Tesla reboots. This is the first solution that fits the known facts regarding time of day and other factors. No one at the installer company even considered this.

What Tesla did was take us off the 'automatic update' list. If there's a critical update, they will notify me, so I can expect it, and either turn on the grid during this operation, or just expect it to shutdown and reboot. This happened the very beginning of July and so far there have been no shutdowns and the system is functioning normally. If it continues like this past Labor Day, not far off, I will pay the installer the balance I owe them.

As and extra added goody, Tesla gave me for FREE a piece of equipment called called an Enphase Envoy, which is a very sophisticated panel controller that allows me to watch the operation of each of the 21 panels in the array at any time of the day or night, and if there's a weak panel I'll see it right away. It also senses when the battery is fully charged and lowers the panel output to the demands of the house. It's normal to see the battery fully charged by 12:30 or 1pm and if there's sun for the afternoon, as there usually is, the house will run entirely on the panel output, leaving the battery fully charged at sundown. Nice. I smell somewhere in the vicinity of $1,500 for this equipment, plus installation. Quite generous of Tesla, I think.

So while the installer company really fell down on this issue, Tesla came to the rescue and I am a happy camper now. And through this process I now have contact info on Tesla's top people here in the Caribbean (we are in Puerto Rico).

Thanks very much again for your time and thoughts.

 

[caribconsult]

Who really was responsible?

Who really was responsible?

Just an update. I was giving the Tesla folks all the credit for resolving the issues and giving me the free Envoy, when it turns out this was put in motion by the president/owner of Maximo Solar. He wrote to me personally and explained how he rounded up everyone, including the notoriously secretive Tesla crew, and he was responsible for the introduction of the Envoy, which they are considering making a standard part of their setups. So thanks to those who deserve it, Sr. Maximo Torres, of Maximo Solar.

And we have had no problems with the system since June, 2018. Gracias a Diós.

 

[Adamjamma]

Do you have the Tesla panels or just the power walls? They have been sending me a little info for JA and so...

 

[ggunn]

Just an update. I was giving the Tesla folks all the credit for resolving the issues and giving me the free Envoy, when it turns out this was put in motion by the president/owner of Maximo Solar. He wrote to me personally and explained how he rounded up everyone, including the notoriously secretive Tesla crew, and he was responsible for the introduction of the Envoy, which they are considering making a standard part of their setups. So thanks to those who deserve it, Sr. Maximo Torres, of Maximo Solar.

And we have had no problems with the system since June, 2018. Gracias a Diós.

The Envoy is an Enphase monitoring device, is it not?

 

[FionaZuppa]

I thought this was an old thread, and it is, 14pages old. I mentioned it early on, but my comment got erased.

The Tesla stuff is junk.

 

[caribconsult]

Your question abou the panels

Your question abou the panels

Do you have the Tesla panels or just the power walls? They have been sending me a little info for JA and so...

I don't know what brand the panels are. I don't think they are a Tesla brand. They were selected by the installer company and we've had no problem with them, and they seem to be putting out their rated output when we have good sun. The microinverters are by Enphase, as is the Envoy. The battery and gateway are Tesla.

Any further questions, ask away.

 

[caribconsult]

The Envoy is an Enphase monitoring device, is it not?

It's most def by Enphase, and what it exactly does that the existing gateway didn't already do, I'm not 100% sure of, but I think the Envoy, besides monitoring each microinverter and the whole panel array, is controlling the panel output once the battery is charged during the day. It uses a phase shift up to between 61-62Hz and that effectively lowers the panel output to whatever the house is using, generally .4Kw - 1.4Kw depending on how many TV's are on, using the microwave oven, whether both fridges are running their compressors simultaneously, etc. The house frequently runs exclusively on the PV array for most of the afternoon until sundown. The phase shift also makes all the plugged in clocks in the house run too fast! But you don't notice it otherwise. I suppose if you had a record turntable (!!) with a synchronous motor it might play too fast as well, but who has one of those these days? My only complaint with the Envoy is the phone app they provide to re-configure it, but I generally don't need that, and the on-line monitoring through their website is way more thorough and easy to use. I did have a problem with getting the Envoy to maintain contact with the house WiFi, so I put in a EOP link and it sensed that immediately and now connects directly to the router.

The monitoring features of the Envoy are excellent. You'll spot a low-output panel or defective inverter quickly and Enphase can access the whole deal via internet. You can see the output of each individual panel throughout the day. And the reset issues we were experiencing are gone, and again, I"m not 100% sure of why, but I am 100% glad that it's running perfectly. Our electric bill last month was $10, and solely due to connecting temporarily to the grid while using our electric dryer perhaps once a week.

Any further questions, feel free to ask.

 

[jaggedben]

The Envoy can't control the micro-inverters output directly, but it is what you would use to program them to react with more flexibility to the micro-grid conditions you're imposing by using the Powerwall as the primary source most of the time. I can only speculate how they could have used the Envoy to improve your system performance. But one option would be to program the micro-inverters in groups that the Powerwall can effectively turn on and off by shifting frequency a very small amount. If Enphase and Tesla actually cooperated to make this happen then that's an interesting tidbit of news. For what it's worth, Enphase will at some point this year be introducing their own backup storage solutions that will basically do all this with one manufacturer. We'll see how price competitive it is.

The Envoy should have been included in your install from the get go for its solar monitoring features, in any case. That comment is not intended to detract from your praise for your installer, who, given the time, eventually got a cutting edge micro-grid system to work for you.