Testing old wiring before arc fault protection

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mbrooke

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Sorry, mbrooke, but don_resqcapt19 is correct.
The recognition of arc signatures is solely the job of the electronics- the magnetic trip doesn't recognize arc signatures-it only reacts to current.

Who says you need wave analysis to stop arcing? Who said current alone can't do it?


And I think you may have misinterpreted him- he wasn't claiming that you need a smart device to detect arc signatures; he was saying that detection of arc signatures is only possible because of the electronics- what else in the afci detects "arc signatures"? Nothing. Note the quotations around those few words in his posts.:)

If you are directly looking at peaks/troughs/ripples in a sign wave then yes, you need electronics. But the biggest kicker is that arcs can be mitigated without a single transistor :D


Here is a quote from the 2014 ROP starting at page 139:


The UL report states “breakers can be effective at mitigating arcing faults,
provided the available fault current can be guaranteed to exceed the magnetic
trip level of the circuit breaker by a factor of 1.25.”



https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2013-ROP.pdf


The branch feeder AFCIs was supposed to be nothing more then a series coil but the idea was scrapped because a 75 amp mag pickup would blow on some motors.
 

don_resqcapt19

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...
I disagree. Electronics came about because a 75 amp magnetic trip would cause nuisance tripping. Something other then magnetic trip was needed to catch short circuit arcs. ...
I disagree. Given the products that are on the market, you can't have an AFCI without the electronics. The whole concept of the AFCI is using the electronics to detect an arc signature. It has nothing to do with detection actual short circuits, it is only about detection arc faults...something that probably does not even exist at dwelling unit voltages. ....
Incorrect. Magnetic trip has been proven to mitigate parallel arc faults. This concept even stretches to the NEC.
I am talking about the AFCI that is on the market and that device requires electronics. The NEC would only permit a thermal magnetic device without electronics, if that device passed all of the AFCI requirements and was listed as such. There is no such device on the marker and it is very unlikely that there will ever be a device that complies with 210.12 that does not have electronics.
 

mbrooke

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I disagree. Given the products that are on the market, you can't have an AFCI without the electronics. The whole concept of the AFCI is using the electronics to detect an arc signature.


The concept by itself never mandated electronics. As Ive said, UL reports and testing have demonstrated a parallel arc can also be cleared via magnetic trip alone. This is one of the earliest papers (that I can find) saying that:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-15.pdf

The author has also written several others saying that with oscilloscope testing. UL latter researched the idea extensively:

http://library.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2015/02/BreakerMitigationofArcFaults.pdf


http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...lity_to_Mitigate_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_1.pdf

http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...lity_to_Mitigate_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_2.pdf



It has nothing to do with detection actual short circuits, it is only about detection arc faults...

What is the difference between a parallel arc and a short circuit?


something that probably does not even exist at dwelling unit voltages. ....

It doesn't, hence why the term "arcing" needs to be extended to other phenomenon ;)


I am talking about the AFCI that is on the market and that device requires electronics.

Nothing in UL1699 requires an AFCI to have electronics that I am aware of. Yes AFCIs meant to protect the entire circuit currently on the market have electronics, but what they protect against can do the same without electronics. Granted series arcs would be a challenge, but the rest can do without a single semiconductor.


The NEC would only permit a thermal magnetic device without electronics, if that device passed all of the AFCI requirements and was listed as such.

There are two places where that has already happened:

210.12 A 3 and 4.

(4) A listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter
installed at the first outlet on the branch circuit
in combination with a listed branch-circuit overcurrent
protective device
where all of the following
conditions are met:
a. The branch-circuit wiring shall be continuous from
the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the outlet
branch-circuit arc-fault circuit interrupter.
b. The maximum length of the branch-circuit wiring
from the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the
first outlet shall not exceed 15.2 m (50 ft) for a
14 AWG conductor or 21.3 m (70 ft) for a 12 AWG
conductor.


The first 50 feet seem to be arc fault protected.




There is no such device on the marker and it is very unlikely that there will ever be a device that complies with 210.12 that does not have electronics.

There is, a standard thermal magnetic breaker :D Clearly allowed to fulfill part of 210.12.
 

user 100

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The concept by itself never mandated electronics. As Ive said, UL reports and testing have demonstrated a parallel arc can also be cleared via magnetic trip alone. This is one of the earliest papers (that I can find) saying that:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-15.pdf

The author has also written several others saying that with oscilloscope testing. UL latter researched the idea extensively:

http://library.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2015/02/BreakerMitigationofArcFaults.pdf


http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...lity_to_Mitigate_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_1.pdf

http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...lity_to_Mitigate_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_2.pdf





What is the difference between a parallel arc and a short circuit?




It doesn't, hence why the term "arcing" needs to be extended to other phenomenon ;)




Nothing in UL1699 requires an AFCI to have electronics that I am aware of. Yes AFCIs meant to protect the entire circuit currently on the market have electronics, but what they protect against can do the same without electronics. Granted series arcs would be a challenge, but the rest can do without a single semiconductor.




There are two places where that has already happened:

210.12 A 3 and 4.




The first 50 feet seem to be arc fault protected.






There is, a standard thermal magnetic breaker :D Clearly allowed to fulfill part of 210.12.
You don't seem to understand that don_resqcapt19 wasn't making any sort of claim that electronics are needed for detection of arc faults- he was only referencing the devices currently on the market. Also, 210.12 and the afci requirement- again it isn't about what might provide equivalent protection or what fullfills part of it- the afci concept (product on the market now )requires electronics to detect that "arc signature".
electronics
 
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mbrooke

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You don't seem to understand that don_resqcapt19 wasn't making any sort of claim that electronics are needed for detection of arc faults- he was only referencing the devices currently on the market.

Ok, maybe I misread him. :ashamed1: I took it as the only way to stop arc faults is withe electronics, which is not that case.


Also, 210.12 and the afci requirement- again it isn't about what might provide equivalent protection or what fullfills part of it- the afci concept (product on the market now )requires electronics to detect that "arc signature".
electronics

Then why can a standard thermal mag breaker provide arc fault protection for the first 50 or 70 feet of in wall NM cable? Why not delete that and use a standard arc fault breaker with electronics for everything?

Also, an arc signature is more then just a signature, it has current properties as well. Otherwise magnetic trip would not catch it.
 

johnmeto

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Bunches of words yet still they are bringing on contractual workers and mortgage holders heaps of cerebral pains with no evidence they are sparing lives or property.

Be that as it may, the length of there is benefit to be verified we are screwed over thanks to them.
 

mbrooke

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Bunches of words yet still they are bringing on contractual workers and mortgage holders heaps of cerebral pains with no evidence they are sparing lives or property.

Be that as it may, the length of there is benefit to be verified we are screwed over thanks to them.

What they call "arc faults" are nothing more then regular short circuits re-labelled as such. GFCIs would have provided the same if not better protection, but they needed a new price point. Its like adding a few extra copule holders in a car or an extra knob on a washing machine and then charging hundreds extra simply because it somehow does more. Pure marketing, nothing more. :happysad:
 

don_resqcapt19

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Ok, maybe I misread him. :ashamed1: I took it as the only way to stop arc faults is withe electronics, which is not that case. ...
The only devices that are listed as AFCIs have electronics.
....Also, an arc signature is more then just a signature, it has current properties as well. Otherwise magnetic trip would not catch it.
As I understand the AFCIs that currently exist, that is not correct. The AFCI only looks at the current to see if is should look at the arc signature. Where the current exceeds the threshold, the AFCI starts looking for an arc signature and if it sees one, it opens the circuit.
 

mbrooke

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The only devices that are listed as AFCIs have electronics.

Excluding supplemental arc protection breakers thats true, but the code lets you achieve arc fault mitigation with a standard breaker under the right conditions.


As I understand the AFCIs that currently exist, that is not correct. The AFCI only looks at the current to see if is should look at the arc signature. Where the current exceeds the threshold, the AFCI starts looking for an arc signature and if it sees one, it opens the circuit.


Correct.
 

romex jockey

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electrician
The Public will eventually demand it

The Public will eventually demand it

Gentlemen,
with all due respect to your points ,

the '14 is just a taste, if you've read the '17 {and i'll wager they'll have their way} afci's will proliferate the trade.........i've also waited well over a decade for the inevitable...

mama pajama isn't going to care about electronica or magnetic trip values when her refer's contents have gone bad, when the furnace won't fire and the pipes freeze , or is otherwise inconvenienced.

and i'm hearing more of this sort of thing ,locally as well as in the asci-sphere......

NEMA will eventually need to step up to the plate

~RJ~
 

mbrooke

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Gentlemen,
with all due respect to your points ,

the '14 is just a taste, if you've read the '17 {and i'll wager they'll have their way} afci's will proliferate the trade.........i've also waited well over a decade for the inevitable...

mama pajama isn't going to care about electronica or magnetic trip values when her refer's contents have gone bad, when the furnace won't fire and the pipes freeze , or is otherwise inconvenienced.

and i'm hearing more of this sort of thing ,locally as well as in the asci-sphere......

NEMA will eventually need to step up to the plate

~RJ~




Especially when the entire AFCI juggernaut is built upon pure speculation and obfuscated terms.

At least Canada left heating equipment out of the AFCI rules.
 

klineelectric

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FL
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electrical contractor
Gentlemen,
with all due respect to your points ,

the '14 is just a taste, if you've read the '17 {and i'll wager they'll have their way} afci's will proliferate the trade.........i've also waited well over a decade for the inevitable...

mama pajama isn't going to care about electronica or magnetic trip values when her refer's contents have gone bad, when the furnace won't fire and the pipes freeze , or is otherwise inconvenienced.

and i'm hearing more of this sort of thing ,locally as well as in the asci-sphere.....

NEMA will eventually need to step up to the plate

~RJ~
Agreed. I've been playing phone/e-mail tag with seimens rep who says Whirlpool has been notified of issue with refrigerator. When it goes into energy savings mode it dims the LED lights which sends "noise" over circuit and trips breaker. I have had this issue on 2 houses already. They said only suggestion was a surge suppressor / rf filter on circuit. Which manufacturer is gonna pay for this... the refer or breaker manufacturer............exactly the electrical contractor.
 
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Agreed. I've been playing phone/e-mail tag with seimens rep who says Whirlpool has been notified of issue with refrigerator. When it goes into energy savings mode it dims the LED lights which sends "noise" over circuit and trips breaker. I have had this issue on 2 houses already. They said only suggestion was a surge suppressor / rf filter on circuit. Which manufacturer is gonna pay for this... the refer or breaker manufacturer............exactly the electrical contractor.
My question is how does the rf filter affect the operation of the AFCI. Does it filter out the arc signature that it is looking for or just the LED problem?
 

ActionDave

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So, the UL 1699 standard for AFCIs has roughly (50) different performance tests. Once you strip away the "standard" tests done on ALL electrical devices that ensure the product is safe from shock, fire, damage, etc.; what you are left with are primarily performance tests to prevent unwanted tripping.

For instance you have:

> Overvoltage, Undervoltage, Voltage Variations & Surge Voltage Tests (Ring Wave & Combination Wave)
> Loading Condition Tests (Inrush Current, Normal Operating Arcing, Non-Sinusoidal Waveform, Cross-Talk, Multiple Load, Lamp Burnout)
> Operation Inhibition Tests (Signal Masking, EMI Filter, Line Impedance)
> Resistance to Environmental Noise Tests (Electrostatic Discharge, Electromagnetic Field, Electrical Fast Transient, Induced RF Fields)

And there are a few others.

In order for a household refrigerator or freezer to be listed to the UL 250 standard, they must also go through a series of performance tests to ensure they do not operate outside any of the parameters set within that standard while under a host of varying conditions. None of those parameters are permitted to exceed the thresholds of the unwanted tripping tests in the UL 1699 standard for AFCIs.

A refrigerator is nothing more that a few motor loads, lighting loads, and perhaps a few electronic loads. None of the operational characteristics of these types of loads are subject to unwanted tripping IF they perform to standard.

One of three issues must be occurring in order for an AFCI to trip on a branch circuit supplying an outlet connected to a refrigerator:

1. The AFCI is damaged or defective.
2. The refrigerator is damaged or defective. (Any one part or component)
3. The wiring &/or terminations are defective.

That's it. The rest is simple algebra. If the AFCI and refrigerator are to standard, the wiring is the culprit. If the AFCI and wiring are to standard, the refrigerator is the culprit. If the refrigerator and wiring are to standard, the AFCI is the culprit.

Agreed. I've been playing phone/e-mail tag with seimens rep who says Whirlpool has been notified of issue with refrigerator. When it goes into energy savings mode it dims the LED lights which sends "noise" over circuit and trips breaker. I have had this issue on 2 houses already. They said only suggestion was a surge suppressor / rf filter on circuit. Which manufacturer is gonna pay for this... the refer or breaker manufacturer............exactly the electrical contractor.
Sounds like the breaker is the culprit. Don't you think so Brian?

My question is how does the rf filter affect the operation of the AFCI. Does it filter out the arc signature that it is looking for or just the LED problem?
Nobody knows. There is no legitimate test for these things.
 

mbrooke

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You can screw up almost anything.

That does not mean the standard breaker provides AFCI protection.



In reality sure, but UL reports (along with others) have openly stated they do mitigate arc faults when the fault current can trip the breaker magnetically. Hence why the 50 and 70 ft rules were imposed in (A) (4) (b).
 

romex jockey

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Like selling ice cream to eskimos....

Like selling ice cream to eskimos....

Agreed. I've been playing phone/e-mail tag with seimens rep who says Whirlpool has been notified of issue with refrigerator. When it goes into energy savings mode it dims the LED lights which sends "noise" over circuit and trips breaker. I have had this issue on 2 houses already. They said only suggestion was a surge suppressor / rf filter on circuit. Which manufacturer is gonna pay for this... the refer or breaker manufacturer............exactly the electrical contractor.

Generally we eat it & loose credibility Mr. Kline ....The only reason i know is, our (thankfully) ex-chief inspector amended afci protection in our state's take of the NEC a full cycle ahead of the nation in '99 . He also demanded afci's on all service upgrades (the resultant fallout ending up in a slew of 'formal interpretations' serving to create 210.12B's 6' rule btw)

In short, we've simply a longer history of installs on the horizon for the rest of you>>
siemensafcipanel_zpsbfbb08be.jpg


~RJ~
 

mbrooke

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I think its safe to say the science of mass propaganda has been perfected. So many people have drunk the kool-aid thinking its real.
 
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