The Commercial World ...

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Energy-Miser

Energy-Miser

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Greetings,
We are a small shop (four journeyman level electricians and a couple of helpers), doing almost exclusively residential. I would like for us to get into commercial work, but have some reservations, due to lack of personal experience. What is the best way to enter into the commercial world? I would like of course to start small, to get my feet wet first and ramp up with time. Thank you for your suggestions.
BTW, I just recently found Mike Holt's Forum, and have loved it. Lot's of great posts, and fascinating read on all topics. My thanks to all. Energy-Miser.
 
Start small. Don't expect to start out wiring a big-box store, shopping mall, school or a hospital. A strip-mall build-out would be a great place to start.

Do you have anyone with any commercial experience at all? If not, it's going to be rough unless you get someone. Commercial is a whole new ball game if you're not familiar with fire alarms, lighting contactors, and the like.

And remember, 14-ga wire is almost unheard of in the world of pipe (except for maybe control wiring!).
 
Starting small ...

Starting small ...

480sparky said:
Start small. Don't expect to start out wiring a big-box store, shopping mall, school or a hospital. A strip-mall build-out would be a great place to start.

Do you have anyone with any commercial experience at all? If not, it's going to be rough unless you get someone. Commercial is a whole new ball game if you're not familiar with fire alarms, lighting contactors, and the like.

And remember, 14-ga wire is almost unheard of in the world of pipe (except for maybe control wiring!).
Click to expand...

Thanks, yeah definitely small, even then I won't know exactly how to estimate it, until I learn my was around it. I have at least two guys who know how to bend pipes, etc. They have done a lot of Walmart service calls, installing power drops, etc. We even did a woodworking shop for a senior living complex once, turned out very nicely. The truth is, if it starts looking profitable, I will have no problem adding a commercial electrician to my staff (I know they will cost more, but it will be justified). E-M.
 
Energy-Miser said:
What is the best way to enter into the commercial world?
Click to expand...

I don't know what is the best way but one way that is reasonable in cost is to get a listing in " The Blue Book " if your state is covered. Many small commercial jobs are done by out of state contractors that are looking for local companies to submit bids.

http://www.thebluebook.com/
 
However you get started, you might want to keep in mind what Celtic once posted: Do not take a job that is worth more than twice as much as your largest project to date. Or something like that. It rings true in my opinion.
 
Another important thing to do is once you start doing commercial, keep track of how long it truly takes to complete a portion of the job. How long did it take to install the EMT? The service? Devices?

By proper benchmarking, you can get a better handle on your labor costs for each succesive project.
 
j_erickson said:
However you get started, you might want to keep in mind what Celtic once posted: Do not take a job that is worth more than twice as much as your largest project to date. Or something like that. It rings true in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Wow...you remembered that?
Impressive!

Don't take on a job that is more than twice the cost of your last job.
​

***********


IMHO, the NEC on comm. jobs is a cake walk - just get your circuit sizes and pipe runs (or MC) right and you're pretty much good to go.
The difficult aspect is the actual prints.

Watch your GFCI locations [210.8(B)] ....is the "break room" actually a "kitchen" ?:wink:

The notes will usually include language such as:
- Not more than 3 circuits per conduit run.
- Minimum conduit size: 3/4" EMT.
If you spend some time in T310.15(B)(2)(a) and have T310.16 as a second home, with a close relative in Annex C ...you can save some money.


With commercial work, the details are in the details....ie, STUDY the notes. A small "miss" - like on wall finish - can be the difference between profit and disaster.
Many times, what one would expect to be on the elec. prints shows up on the mech. prints.
On some commercial jobs, using 3 (or more pages) of the print simultaneously is not uncommon:
- Electrical
- Mechanical
- Reflected Ceiling
- Architectural
 
celtic said:
Don't take on a job that is more than twice the cost of your last job.
Click to expand...

I say we call that "Celtic's Rule" :)


A lot of great info being given in this thread.

I will repeat read the notes, the specifications, anything at all to do with the contract so you know at all times where your stand.

I don't want to surprise anyone but sometimes GCs lie about who 'owns' what work and deadlines.

Know what you are and are not reasonable for.
 
As an employee I worked on everything from a photo mat to a nuke. As an EC I know the limitations of my company.We entered the commercial end through a strip mall, I met with the mall manager to discuss doing service work and ended up with a store space remodel they had three new stores comming and three different GC s we ended up doing all three.
 
growler said:
I don't know what is the best way but one way that is reasonable in cost is to get a listing in " The Blue Book " if your state is covered. Many small commercial jobs are done by out of state contractors that are looking for local companies to submit bids.

http://www.thebluebook.com/
Click to expand...

Yes, I have registered recently with the Blue Book, I guess our listing will be out with their new eddition in Jan. 08. In the meantime, I have been receiving a lot of emails from Blue Book subscribers in the form of invitation to bid (they have apparently posted our listing online). I have not responded to any of them yet. I have even received a few plans in the mail, but these seem to be entirely too big for us. I am tempted to respond to some of those emailed invitations to bid, but did not know how to go about putting together a reasonable estimate. Energy-Miser.
 
Rewire said:
As an employee I worked on everything from a photo mat to a nuke. As an EC I know the limitations of my company.We entered the commercial end through a strip mall, I met with the mall manager to discuss doing service work and ended up with a store space remodel they had three new stores comming and three different GC s we ended up doing all three.
Click to expand...
How did you like doing the three stores? Were they overall profitable for you? I have a job coming up (approved and ready to start, once the material for it is in), which consists of changing over some fluorescent lights in a strip mall to MH lights (store front walk way, under a soffet). I guess I could ask the building manager there, while we are working there, if he needs contract work for any new stores moving in. Seems to me doing a small store would be a good foot in the door. E-M.
 
j_erickson said:
However you get started, you might want to keep in mind what Celtic once posted: Do not take a job that is worth more than twice as much as your largest project to date. Or something like that. It rings true in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely a good advice to anyone. e-m.
 
480sparky said:
Another important thing to do is once you start doing commercial, keep track of how long it truly takes to complete a portion of the job. How long did it take to install the EMT? The service? Devices?

By proper benchmarking, you can get a better handle on your labor costs for each succesive project.
Click to expand...

Yes most certainly will be very useful to benchmark these activities. I am looking to buy a project management / estimating software, and have come across McCormick for one. I am wondering if it, or another software like it will give EC's the capability to track details like you mention. e/m.
 
a good advice

a good advice

celtic said:
Wow...you remembered that?
Impressive!

Don't take on a job that is more than twice the cost of your last job.
​

***********


IMHO, the NEC on comm. jobs is a cake walk - just get your circuit sizes and pipe runs (or MC) right and you're pretty much good to go.
The difficult aspect is the actual prints.

Watch your GFCI locations [210.8(B)] ....is the "break room" actually a "kitchen" ?:wink:

The notes will usually include language such as:
- Not more than 3 circuits per conduit run.
- Minimum conduit size: 3/4" EMT.
If you spend some time in T310.15(B)(2)(a) and have T310.16 as a second home, with a close relative in Annex C ...you can save some money.


With commercial work, the details are in the details....ie, STUDY the notes. A small "miss" - like on wall finish - can be the difference between profit and disaster.
Many times, what one would expect to be on the elec. prints shows up on the mech. prints.
On some commercial jobs, using 3 (or more pages) of the print simultaneously is not uncommon:
- Electrical
- Mechanical
- Reflected Ceiling
- Architectural
Click to expand...

Thanks Celtic good points. Tell me please, can a small job (say one store front), turn into a nightmare too if you miss some detail or are you only talking about the big jobs? e/m.
 
T&m

T&m

Rewire said:
We did our first store as a T&M which was good as it gave me a chance to see what I was dealing with for the next store.
Click to expand...
Yes any T&M you can get will be good. We did one of those too, although it was highly unconventional (amusement park!), and hard to translate to your every day commercial, but nontheless was a profitable job.
e/m.
 
Energy-Miser said:
Tell me please, can a small job (say one store front), turn into a nightmare too if you miss some detail or are you only talking about the big jobs?
Click to expand...

The smaller the job the less room for mistakes.

I did a Tommy Hilfiger store in a large existing outlet mall.

Pretty small but being a chain store they have very detailed requirements.

A few examples.

The lighting control was via six - 12 pole lighting contactors, pretty normal but the notes required a specific brand and type. That specific type was about twice the price as almost any other.

They needed conduits run into the slabs in certain locations, for both registers and security systems at the doors. If you miss this it will be expensive once the floor finish goes down

The lighting, about 900' of track lighting was to follow the ceiling grid meaning you need to field cut the track many times, this adds time. The fixtures on the tracks where HIDs which in my area require independent support from the ceiling grid so we had to provide 100s of Caddy clips for this.

Then there was the fire alarm system, doing the work in the store was straight forward, relocate some pull stations, horn strobes, add some smokes. But....now it has to be tied into the malls fire alarm panel...Fire department would only allow night time shutdown of fire panel so now we have to pay OT on the job and we have to hire the malls Fire Alarm contractor to re-program the panel and check our work.

They charged us $1,500 for that few minutes of work.

I am not trying to scare you just saying keep your eyes open and if you have a question on who is responsible for what make sure it gets answered before you bid.

Commercial type electrical equipment is not cheap you don't want to give any of it away.
 
Last edited:
celtic said:
Wow...you remembered that?
Impressive!


Don't take on a job that is more than twice the cost of your last job.​
Click to expand...


I agree we should call this "Celtic's Rule". Not to be confused if you are a Boston hoops fan this year with "Celtics rule!"

I remember it because it struck me as the best advice that I've read on this forum. Seriously. Plus I haven't been around much in the past 8 months, so I've probably missed some of your more recent wisdom.;) But I should be around a little more now.:smile:
 
Pitfalls ...

Pitfalls ...

iwire said:
The smaller the job the less room for mistakes.

I did a Tommy Hilfiger store in a large existing outlet mall.

Pretty small but being a chain store they have very detailed requirements.

A few examples.

The lighting control was via a six - 12 pole lighting contactors, pretty normal but the notes required a specific brand and type. That specific type was about twice the price as almost any other.

They needed conduits run into the slabs in certain locations, for both registers and security systems at the doors. If you miss this it will be expensive once the floor finish goes down

The lighting, about 900' of track lighting was to follow the ceiling grid meaning you need to field cut the track many times, this adds time. The fixtures on the tracks where HIDs which in my area require independent support from the ceiling grid so we had to provide 100s of Caddy clips for this.

Then there was the fire alarm system, doing the work in the store was straight forward, relocate some pull stations, horn strobes, add some smokes. But....now it has to be tied into the malls fire alarm panel...Fire department would only allow night time shutdown of fire panel so now we have to pay OT on the job and we have to hire the malls Fire Alarm contractor to re-program the panel and check our work.

They charged us $1,500 for that few minutes of work.

I am not trying to scare you just saying keep your eyes open and if you have a question on who is responsible for what make sure it gets answered before you bid.

Commercial type electrical equipment is not cheap you don't want to give any of it away.
Click to expand...

Yes, I suspected there would be a lot of pitfalls, but of course not having done this, did not know where to look for them. Your response brings some of them out to the open, which is great. I am thinking, it probably would pay for me to spend a little money up front, and have someone with experience do a once over of plans for any project I might consider, before I am anywhere near submitting a bid, what do others think about this? e/m.
 
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