The Commercial World ...

[growler]

I have even received a few plans in the mail, but these seem to be entirely too big for us. I am tempted to respond to some of those emailed invitations to bid, but did not know how to go about putting together a reasonable estimate. Energy-Miser.

That's step one, getting the chance to bid.
Step two, choose some job that's both close and simple and then visit the site.
480sparky suggest retail stores at the mall and these are both simple and easy ( much of the time, some are not so easy).
What I do is first look at the tenant space where the work will be done and if it's a chain store I then visit one that's open ( if I haven't already done one ).

Ask yourself the question, " Is this going to be a cake walk or a real bastard"?

Start looking for things that will make the job harder than normal. Access to the job site is very important, what hours can I work, where can we park and so on. Is there anything unusual about this job?

Once you get a feel for the job this will help with figuring out the labor cost. Go over the prints and specs. very carefully and read every note ( I make a list of everything that I don't think is normal or that could slow the job down or cost anything ). Again labor cost.

Make a list of all materials provided by owner or GC. ( you will need to make sure these actually show up and get checked off )
Make a list of all materials that will need to provided by your company.
Make sure to cover not only cost but a substantial mark-up.

Once you have materials cost then how long would be reasonable for installation under the conditions noted ( not ideal but actual ). If you can answer this question then you have your labor cost.

It doesn't hurt to work up a bid or two just for practice. It doesn't hurt to send in a few that are really high, you could get lucky. Bids on many jobs are all over the place, the same job can recieve a bid of 50K from one contractor and 100K from another so don't feel you have to hit a certain mark. The guy that bid 50K may actually lose 25K ( it happens ).

This is just my idea on bidding, but I would rather bid high and lose the job than bid low and lose money. On small jobs I can do two bids over the weak end so I don't have a lot of time invested. :wink:

 

[Energy-Miser]

That's step one, getting the chance to bid.
Step two, choose some job that's both close and simple and then visit the site. ....

All great points, thanks. Definitly need to see the job, and take time with the plans and notes. I totally agree on the bidding issue you brought up. I have ended up losing a lot of money on a residential custom home, due to inexperience in bidding. The house was to be wired for home automation, practically covered with copper. Plus every fixture that goes up is imported, and custom made, very labor intensive. At least you won't have this in commercial, but as you pointed out there are plenty of other pitfalls to look out for. e/m.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I agree we should call this "Celtic's Rule". Not to be confused if you are a Boston hoops fan this year with "Celtics rule!"

I remember it because it struck me as the best advice that I've read on this forum. Seriously. Plus I haven't been around much in the past 8 months, so I've probably missed some of your more recent wisdom. But I should be around a little more now.:smile:

Here I go sounding argumentative again. I don't mean to, but years ago I asked an EC who had been in business for 30-years what his one piece of advice for a new EC would be. His response was to never take a job you can't afford to not be paid for. It's similar to "Celtic's Rule", but a little different.

I'm sure Celtic didn't mean that if I did a $100,000 job last month and this month my last job was a $20,000 job that I shouldn't do a $120,000 job next.

 

[celtic]

I'm sure Celtic didn't mean that if I did a $100,000 job last month and this month my last job was a $20,000 job that I shouldn't do a $120,000 job next.

It should probably read something mre along the lines of:

Don't take a job that is greater than twice a previous job....as opposed to "last" job.

I like to "assume" we - as EC's - are constantly growing and not down sizing.:smile:

 

[Energy-Miser]

It's been a while since I asked the question originally in this thread, but I finally submitted a formal bid for a tenant fit out at a local mall. GC is from out of state. Have not heard anything back, not even an acknowledgement of the receipt of the fax I sent my bid in. My bid went out on the 7th (of Feb.), the job is to start 3/1/08. I am interested in some sort of feedback even if my bid gets rejected outright. Is it cool to call and ask what the wining bid was, after the March 1 start time? e/m

 

[nakulak]

its cool to call them right now and ask them how they liked your bid. there is nothing a GC likes more than hungry subs, so play it cool. pump as much info as you can out of them, they might even tell you the winning price hoping you will go lower. be careful, an unscrupulous GC will tell you a price that is actually lower than he got. the more feeback you can get the better you will be. you might find out that there are certain types of stores that you simply can't compete on , and avoid them, so you can concentrate on whatever it is you do best.

 

[Energy-Miser]

its cool to call them right now and ask them how they liked your bid. there is nothing a GC likes more than hungry subs, so play it cool. pump as much info as you can out of them, they might even tell you the winning price hoping you will go lower. be careful, an unscrupulous GC will tell you a price that is actually lower than he got. the more feeback you can get the better you will be. you might find out that there are certain types of stores that you simply can't compete on , and avoid them, so you can concentrate on whatever it is you do best.

Thanks, yes good idea. I will call Monday to see what's up. I forgot to mention that I went to the county web and checked out to see if a building permit was pulled for this particular store. There was, and what's more there was an amount listed there (which seemed too low given that scope of the work, and all the trades that are involved). Are these figures (those given to the permit office when pulling the building permit) accurate figures, or some throw away number to just fill in the blank on the permit application? Does anyone have experience with it? e/m

 

[captaincrab55]

Excellant view, of a small commercial job.

"They charged us $1,500 for that few minutes of work." good example of what other trades may cost, we had a fire alarm connection, they charged $3,000 for, and we were quoted $1, 700 so be sure to have all your minor, sub work signed and sealed, in writing.

Try to exclude such items....

 

[Energy-Miser]

Try to exclude such items....

This mall requires a particular company to do the fire alarm work. We'll have to sub out to them. I called and asked about what they charge. They have a flat fee of $6000. Pretty high if you ask me, but they do furnish all the hardware. e/m

 

[Energy-Miser]

Do small stores in malls cost much more than retail stores elsewhere to wire? I am putting together bid for a kay jewelers store (about 1500 sq. ft.), in a mall. The $/sq.ft comes out to be much higher than the median price suggested by RS Means for retail stores in general. Does anyone have experience with similar jobs? e/m

 

[KelleyF]

Be careful in the Malls. Some allow you to bring material in only at certain times and thru service corridors and parking can be a pain in the butt. Some require you check in with security to access certain areas such as Rooftop, alarm rooms etc.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Do small stores in malls cost much more than retail stores elsewhere to wire? I am putting together bid for a kay jewelers store (about 1500 sq. ft.), in a mall. The $/sq.ft comes out to be much higher than the median price suggested by RS Means for retail stores in general. Does anyone have experience with similar jobs? e/m

Retail can vary greatly in square foot price. It can be as sparce as 2x4 lay ins and basic outlets with a basic cash wrap, to recessed and track lighing all over the place to highlight lit showcases. Do you have any friends that are electrical contractors that would mentor you?

 

[Energy-Miser]

Be careful in the Malls. Some allow you to bring material in only at certain times and thru service corridors and parking can be a pain in the butt. Some require you check in with security to access certain areas such as Rooftop, alarm rooms etc.

Yes, the language is very restrictive, about when work can or cannot be done, level of noise, access and material handing as you mentioned. I thought for these reasons, perhaps there is a significant cost difference in doing mall work. e/m

 

[Energy-Miser]

Retail can vary greatly in square foot price. It can be as sparce as 2x4 lay ins and basic outlets with a basic cash wrap, to recessed and track lighing all over the place to highlight lit showcases. Do you have any friends that are electrical contractors that would mentor you?

Sort of. Let me pm you on this. e/m

 

[Buck Parrish]

Sorry it's to late

Sorry it's to late

Sorry it's to late.
You can teach a commercial electrician to be a residential electrician. But you can't teach a residential electrician to be a commercial electrician.

I didn't make that up!!

 

[mdshunk]

Be careful in the Malls.

I had a mall account for a long time, but lost it. I took a tile out in the middle of the mall area from a scissors lift. I didn't' realize that the tile had a bunch of gravel on top of it, which I suspected was from a former roof repair. A bunch of that gravel got spilled down on top of a crowd of people when I was moving it. Stuff happens.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Sorry it's to late.
You can teach a commercial electrician to be a residential electrician. But you can't teach a residential electrician to be a commercial electrician.

I didn't make that up!!

I am of the belief that anyone can learn anything if they have the seriousness of purpose. I did make that up, and it happens to be true.
e/m.

 

[480sparky]

Be careful in the Malls.

Also, check your liability insurance. Many malls won't accept $1mil policies, they want more.

Sorry it's to late.
You can teach a commercial electrician to be a residential electrician. But you can't teach a residential electrician to be a commercial electrician.

I didn't make that up!!

I disagree. I spent the first 4 years of my career doing nothing but resi. And I've also seen many good comm. guys get lost pulling romex.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Also, check your liability insurance. Many malls won't accept $1mil policies, they want more.

Yes, I think I saw in one of those manuals they put together for contractors, that they require $3 mil. I am thinking maybe the GC's policy will pick up the slack for his subs? Or maybe not.

I disagree. I spent the first 4 years of my career doing nothing but resi. And I've also seen many good comm. guys get lost pulling romex.

No arguments here ! e/m.

 

[jrannis]

Do small stores in malls cost much more than retail stores elsewhere to wire? I am putting together bid for a kay jewelers store (about 1500 sq. ft.), in a mall. The $/sq.ft comes out to be much higher than the median price suggested by RS Means for retail stores in general. Does anyone have experience with similar jobs? e/m

Usually lots of fixtures or track in a jewerly store. Sometimes the owner or GC wants to furnish the lighting. Inspect them carefully. Look for UL or similar testing lab labels. Sometimes you can put them up and then get into some change order dialogue about replacing them.
I would scope out another Kay's store and see what it looks like.