The future of the trade

[gettingstarted]

Re: The future of the trade

I am a 21 year old apprentice working in the midwest. Sadly I must agree with most of you that my generation is nothing but a bunch of lazy idiots. I worked construction before I got into electrical work, and I can honestly say I've prolly worked harder in my short life than most people my age have. But that's okay, i dont mind manual labor, and a job i can take pride in doing right. And, most of you are exactly right, if you decide not to piss away money on college for four plus years, people think you are doomed for the rest of your life. I believe the opposite is true, in thirty years I can drive down the street and say, yeah, I worked on that building when it was going up. What are these desk job yuppies gunna have to show in thirty years, a fat gut and some spreadsheets that dont exist anymore? Fortunantly, i am working for a great company, with people that actually give a damn about how their work looks at the end of the day and can rest easy because they know it was done right and to code. As for the pay, sure i would like more, but i realize that i am still learning and am happy with what i am getting at this point. Atleast I earn my money and am not living on mommy and daddys bank account taking handouts like too many other people i know.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: The future of the trade

Bravo kid bravo

 

[haskindm]

Re: The future of the trade

I see a couple of problems with the future of our trade.
#1 is the Walmart mentality. The average consumer is not concerned with quality or reputation, all they want is the lowest price. I serve on our local electric board and at every meeting we are besieged with complaints about "electricians". In most cases these are people that have hired an unlicensed electrician to do a job "on the side" and are then upset when they get a bad job, or they get caught and find that they will need to hire a real electrician in order to get an inspection. In most cases I feel they got exactly what they asked for. The bad part is that the good electricians are being asked to compete with unlicensed, untrained, side-job workers.
The other problem (and it may be related to the first problem) is that the trade has not been willing to pay a worker a living wage while he learns the trade. I work at a college and we provide training for electricians. I tell these young people that they need to get experience as well as training before they can be a Journeyman or Master Electrician. When they find that most electricians pay helpers little more than minimum wage to do some of the nastiest work out there, they often look elsewhere for a career.
Unfortunately I don't have an answer. Something must happen to allow the the?electrical contractors to make enough money that they can hire and train good people. The unions in our area are doing this. They actually pay their workers for the time they spend in school. The independant shops need to find a way to do the same thing.

 

[vasparky27]

Re: The future of the trade

SPEAKING OF THE NONL LICENSESED there are several handprinted handyman cards on the board at the local laundromat claiming they specialize in electrical with no license number or 'licenced bonded, and insured ' logo? what would you do?
flip them over and pin them back up?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: The future of the trade

The future of the trade sounds sort of like this...."I ain't spendin' no sixty bucks on some stinkin code book....." :roll:

 

[physis]

Re: The future of the trade

Scott, I agree. There was A time when I thought the 60 bucks was a bit much considering Charlie gets nothing for his parcipation and knowledge (I think).

But the NEC is a tool that's at least as important as those new 400 volt cordlesses that everyone "must" have. Never know you'll need to drive an 80 inch 1/4-20 in the middle of a dessert where there's no electrical service for miles. Hope it's charged. :roll:

 

[T-Wragg]

Re: The future of the trade

I agree with many thoughts in this thread but I think that one of the main breakdowns in our trade is that we are too quick to label people journeymen and our government agencies have made it too easy to get a license.

 

[iwire]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by t-bird:
I think that one of the main breakdowns in our trade is that we are too quick to label people journeymen and our government agencies have made it too easy to get a license.

That would be a State to State issue.

Where I am you need a minimum of 8000 hours over a period of no less than four years as an apprentice working under the direct supervision of a holder of a Massachusetts Class B (Journeyman) license

and

Complete 600 hour Journeyman's Course conducted by a college/university, public vocational school, private occupational school licensed by the Department of Education

and

obtain a grade of at least 70% on all licensure examinations.


I don't call that too easy.

 

[physis]

Re: The future of the trade

Makes it pretty hard to explain all the imbeciles running things doesn't it.

 

[iwire]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by physis:
Makes it pretty hard to explain all the imbeciles running things doesn't it.

I got in when it was easy.

4000 hours in the field, no school required.

 

[physis]

Re: The future of the trade

I think we're 5000 hours out here.

Edit:

I got in when it was easy.

4000 hours in the field, no school required.

And schooling way totally manditory.

[ August 02, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[T-Wragg]

Re: The future of the trade

Bob, It is a state to state issue. I noticed a long time a go that many of the states have much harder requirements than we do in California.

 

[tx2step]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by vasparky27:
SPEAKING OF THE NONL LICENSESED there are several handprinted handyman cards on the board at the local laundromat claiming they specialize in electrical with no license number or 'licenced bonded, and insured ' logo? what would you do?
flip them over and pin them back up?

Pull them off and mail a copy of them to the local AHJ and to your state electrical licensing authority, requesting that they take action to stop this activity.

 

[celtic]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by t-bird:
...we are too quick to label people journeymen and our government agencies have made it too easy to get a license.

I don't know where you are from, but this not how it works in NJ.

You can be called a "qualified" JM only AFTER having 8,000 hours of practical experience (not including supervising, estimating, or other management tasks) and a minimum of 576 hours of related instruction. (see N.J.A.C. 13:31-1.2)

You can APPLY to take the ECs test AFTER having proved to the board you are "qualified"..some of these qualifications include:

Applicants for examination for a license as an electrical contractor shall present proof to
the Board that the applicant:

1. Is over the age of 21 years;
2. Holds a high school diploma or equivalency certificate; and
3. Has had, immediately preceding the submission of the application, at least five years of
hands-on experience working with tools in the installation, alteration, or repair of wiring for
electric light, heat or power, which work shall have been done in compliance with the
National Electrical Code. ?Practical hands-on experience? shall not include time spent in
supervising, engaging in the practice of engineering, estimating and performing other
managerial tasks. In the alternative, the applicant may satisfy the practical hands-on
experience requirement by having:
i. Completed a four-year apprenticeship program approved by both a Federal agency
and a Federally certified State agency and at least one year of practical hands-on
experience as defined in (a)3 above. A certificate of completion issued by the
apprenticeship program and a certification by an employer regarding the additional
year of practical hands-on experience shall be submitted with the application for
the electrical contractor?s examination; or
ii. Satisfied the definition of a qualified journeyman electrician as set forth in
N.J.A.C. 13:31-1.2 and completed at least one year of practical hands-on experience
as defined in (a)3 above. The applicant shall submit proof of having satisfied the
definition of a qualified journeyman electrician in N.J.A.C. 13:31-1.2 and a
certification by an employer regarding the additional year of practical hands-on
experience; or
iii. Earned a bachelor?s degree in electrical engineering and completed two years of
practical hands-on experience as defined in (a)3 above. The applicant shall submit
a copy of his or her diploma and a certification by an employer regarding the
additional two years of practical hands-on experience; or
iv. Worked in the field of electrical contracting for a least five years immediately
preceding the date of application. The applicant shall submit a certification by an
employer establishing that the applicant has at least five years of practical handson
experience as defined in (a)3 above.

http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/electric/elecqual.pdf

You MUST be qualified before your application is even accepted - you may still fail the test
The test is roughly 8 hours long and emcompasses code, law and fire alarms...when I took my test (over a decade ago), the areas where code and law - no FA. ...and it was hard....and from what I have heard - it's harder now (with the addition of FA)

Easy? Not in NJ.

...and then once you do pass, it isn't over. Every 3 years(as with code cycles) you MUST take 34 hours of continued education - 10 of which MUST include 9 hours of code and 1 hour of business law.

Did I mention the license holder gets to pay for these courses out-of-pocket? No free ride. (but maybe a tax write-off )


What you say might be true for some states...but not NJ.

 

[kevinware]

Re: The future of the trade

WOW!!! First I want to thank everyone here for all the in-put I read on this site every day. I am a third year apprentice and I am proud to be an electrician (almost). But I too have seen a lot of what is being talked about here. When I started my apprentice training my class was huge, but now there are about 10 of us left. I am in a class with a bunch of younger people who don't know who they are or what they want in life. I am 37 years old so I feel like I am fighting an up hill battle against these younger guys. So I read and re-read my class book, I read the NEC, I show up to class every day, haven't missed a day in three years yet and I pass every test. The younger guys don't read the class material and can't spell NEC and show up to class to catch-up on their sleep. And as for testing, why would you even try if you can take the test over and over again until you get a 70%. I refuse to make a 70% but I have to admit I have taken the Kentucky State Masters test and I passed with a 77%. Now don't all you 20+ years guys get mad and tell me "well that's just a test, it don't mean anything". I understand I have so much to learn, but I wanted to push myself and see if I could pass it. Some people here have said they are having trouble finding good apprentices but on the other side of the coin, I am having trouble finding a good journey man or master who has the heart of a teacher and isn't afraid that I am going to steal his job or take his work away from him. I want to be a good electrician, it is more important to me that the job is done right so I can sleep at night. I love what I do and I want to be the best I can. If some stranger is going to invite me into their house or business to do electrical work, then that stranger has just put his life and safety in my hands, and That is a responsibility I carry with pride.....

Again I want to thank everyone here and I want to thank Mr. Holt for this site.....

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: The future of the trade

Originally posted by haskindm:
The other problem (and it may be related to the first problem) is that the trade has not been willing to pay a worker a living wage while he learns the trade. I work at a college and we provide training for electricians. I tell these young people that they need to get experience as well as training before they can be a Journeyman or Master Electrician. When they find that most electricians pay helpers little more than minimum wage to do some of the nastiest work out there, they often look elsewhere for a career.

This has be the only reason I haven't switched careers from a Software Analyst to an Electrician. It would, conservatively, take me 5-10 years to earn roughly the same as I make now...but it's those first three years payscale that is the real joke.

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: The future of the trade

It should be noted, however, that I am still looking for a way to make it work.

 

[Jhr]

Re: The future of the trade

That would be a State to State issue.

Where I am you need a minimum of 8000 hours over a period of no less than four years as an apprentice working under the direct supervision of a holder of a Massachusetts Class B (Journeyman) license

and

Complete 600 hour Journeyman's Course conducted by a college/university, public vocational school, private occupational school licensed by the Department of Education

and

obtain a grade of at least 70% on all licensure examinations.


I don't call that too easy.

Now I agree with all that bob has posted, that is all good and the way it should be, but the future of our trade is going down hill IMO, for the small shop it is getting harder and harder to make it with all the sidejob electricians and handymen around that are just looking to put extra money in their pockets and doing "electrical contracting" the publics thinking is, why should I pay MR. X EC $$$$$ when I can get john doe who is a journeyman moonlighting electrician to do the same job for $$$ or Mr handyman said he could do it for $$, how can we as legit ECs stop all this so our bids don't get shot down or our $60.00 or $70.00 phr service call fee is thrown out the window, that IMO is what is killing our trade, then jon c jr, who sees how tough it is to make it in this trade says to MR jon c sr. No dad I don't want to take over the EC business, there is no money in it, I can't tell you how many times I thought of hanging it up and going to work for some big commercial outfit where I can start out making $23.00+ per hr with all the benefits and a paycheck every Friday. It doesn't help that X state requires all this education says it will fine any one caught doing electrical work illegally etc, when X state doesn't enforce the rules, their answer, we are strapped for cash in our department and can't afford to hire people to oversee this, so IF inspector X catches someone then we will take action but inspector X is so busy with his work load it makes hard for him to oversee this. And I read on another forum how it is the illegals that are at fault, well IMO its any shady guy illegal or not that is at fault both are killing our trade. THAT IS THE FUTURE OF OUR BUSINESS!

I have taken the Kentucky State Masters test and I passed with a 77%. Now don't all you 20+ years guys get mad and tell me "well that's just a test, it don't mean anything".

Need I say more .

[ August 03, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Jhr ]

 

[physis]

Re: The future of the trade

What about operating overhead?

Every Tom Dick and Harry has their hand in the big pool of money that's made from every job. If legit EC's weren't forced to support the entire economy and government infrastructure maybe the cost of a small job wouldn't be so confiscatory as to make the bill unreasonable in the eyes of the small job needer.

There might be a reason people are knowingly hiring under qualified people. I think those people probably realize that they're not getting equivalent work.

 

[kevinware]

Re: The future of the trade

JHR,
Are you saying that I am hurting the trade just because I took a test?? I don't claim to be a master electrician..... I am an apprentice.