The infamous and elusive UFER

Mt61 said:
This is supported by Exhibit 250.22 comments (see attached file of comments)
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You do realize that the HB comments are simply opinions and are not code requirements? There are structures that don't incorporate footers in the design.
 
zbang said:
Then it doesn't qualify as a CEE ("in direct contact with earth"). 250.52(A)(3), The informational note confirms this.
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This is what I almost always see down here in central Florida. Yet we still put a ufer in anyway. We always supplement with 2 ground rods, but I can't get my company to change their ways.
 
Mt61 said:
Yes I understand where you're coming from. But the requirement from most jurisdictions is you shall have your CEE in place to pass your foundation inspection. ...
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I have certainly seen this, but it doesn't come from the NEC, it comes from other local rules. You correctly refer here to a foundation inspection, not an electrical inspection.
 
electrofelon said:
I would like to know how many structures in America have concrete that doesn't have rebar , and would qualify as a CEE if you put in the #4. Maybe 7? 😂
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I did a house once where they had 3/8" rebar. Building inspector came the morning of the footing pour to inspect the footing and failed them for no CEE. The Mason ran to home depot and bought a piece of #6 bare copper and a rebar clamp. Inspector came back and passed it while the concrete truck was waiting. I came in to do the 200 amp service and cut the #6 off.
 
Mt61 said:
You've ALL missed 250.52 (3) (2) That you can put a bare copper not smaller than 4awg in the concrete when the rebar is not there! Like a Post tension slab foundation. I still want to know who the "engineer" is or the engineering document that states the side of the footing is enough contact with the earth is acceptable or does this commentary satisfy. see exhibit 250.23 NEC 2017
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The engineer who founded this particular method was Mr. Herbert Ufer, PE, somewhere in Arizona, I believe.
Some call it the Ufer ground, named in honor of Mr. Ufer.

TX+MASTER#4544
 
FYI NEC 2023 commentary (And NO commentary is not code, but written by the code experts to help us understand)
"Because the installation of the footings and foundation is one of the first elements of a construction project, one that in most cases has long been completed by the time the electric service is installed, compliance with 250.50 requires an awareness and coordinated effort on the part of designers and the construction trades to make sure that the concrete-encased electrode is incorporated into the grounding electrode system. The exception to 250.50 provides a practical solution where modifications are made to an electrical system in an existing building that necessitates connection to the building grounding electrode system".
So in most jurisdictions in Florida put it in to pass your Electrical portion of your foundation inspection or hire an engineer to design how to cut open the concrete to accomplish the CEE.
 
infinity said:
What's shown on plans and whats required by the NEC isn't always the same thing. No rebar no CEE required.
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There's no CEE there until the concrete is poured! So put the bare 20' copper conductor in and pour the concrete and you will have a CEE.
 
Mt61 said:
There's no CEE there until the concrete is poured! So put the bare 20' copper conductor in and pour the concrete and you will have a CEE.
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You can do that but as I said prior you are not required to install a CEE unless there is:
1) a footing
2) 20' or more of 1/2" or larger non-coated metal rebar
3) no vapor barrier
If all three of those conditions are met then you can choose between connecting to the rebar or adding 20' or more of #4 or larger bare copper to make the CEE.
 
infinity said:
Around here that "existing" argument doesn't hold water. If you forgot the CEE you will be installing one. Besides you won't even be pouring the footing because without the CEE you won't pass the footing form inspection. Building inspectors know to look for the CEE before allowing the concrete to be poured.
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Wellll, maybe. Around here Nope or don't care.

Likely the locals forcing the chipping out concrete to access the rebar (even though clearly not required by the NEC), is an attempt to get the long time non-compliant foundation installers to start getting and keeping the continuity of the CEE available to the electrical installation.
I would bet (at least around here) 99 percent of the new installations do not or are not compliant to the CEE requirement other than in non-dwelling builds.
Npstewart said:
This is a screen shot of the email by the way. This is from the inspector.
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Wait a minute did he just forget a word (typo) or he was just plain wrong related to "over 25 OHM"?
electrofelon said:
No this was not necessarily built to codes. I don't see what a built in footer accomplishes, if it has enough strength flat and uniform then seems equivalent. Now some codes may require frost protection which is often accomplished with insulation laid below grade out some distance from the building.
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Right frost heave is the issue with slab on grade An Alaskan slab can help but still not efficient in preventing heave. Usually this type of installation is limited to non-dwelling small structures or mobile home pad but in latter it requires insulation materials around perimeter below frost line, around here to get to there is 3-4ft.
 
NC still won't change their view on concrete encase electrode. Their interpretation is if the electrician comes to the job and the footings are poured then there isn't any concrete encase electrode. I wish they would change it. Regardless we still, at least until I retired, would connect a ufer. If the job was far away, then I would give the builder the materials and he would install the concrete encase electrode for me so I didn't have to make an extra trip.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
NC still won't change their view on concrete encase electrode. Their interpretation is if the electrician comes to the job and the footings are poured then there isn't any concrete encase electrode
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Are there footing inspections before the pour? A CEE isn't rocket science so it seems like the footing inspector can determine if a CEE is required.
 
infinity said:
Are there footing inspections before the pour? A CEE isn't rocket science so it seems like the footing inspector can determine if a CEE is required.
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NC has an amendment that basically went back to the old code wording so that a concrete encase electrode is not required.

The code states All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

NC took out present and put in the word "available" which is still questionable but they have made it clear that it isn't required
 
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