The most commonly ignored code rule

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mdshunk said:
The labor spent making up all those connections in the ceiling box can sometimes outweigh the cable savings. Just depends. I try not to do it that way unless I have some compelling reason, like in old work where it'll be easier to just fish one 14-3 to each switch box.
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I suppose. Obviously everyone has a different idea in their mind's eye when a scenario is presented.

But I can't see a few extra wires and wirenuts killing that much more time than the cost of running more wire and making up the other box.
 
peter d said:
I suppose. Obviously everyone has a different idea in their mind's eye when a scenario is presented.

But I can't see a few extra wires and wirenuts killing that much more time than the cost of running more wire and making up the other box.
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The difference is a foot of wire will always cost you the same. Whereas labor, you have a great deal of variables.

If it takes you an hour to install 100' of NM, the 100' of NM still costs the same as it did if you can install it in 30 minutes.
 
JHMaynard said:
Ok, Wirebender, I'm willing to learn. Just what exactly does 200.7(C)(2) mean? I've given my opinion and you have dismissed it as "nothing to do with what the code says." Maybe you can translate the article for me.
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That statement was in reference to your statement


JHMaynard said:
My understanding of why a white cannot be reidentified except when used as a constant hot is so that it never looks like a neutral to either a wiggy or tic trace or meter.
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and I was not dismissing your opinion and I apologize if it seemed that way to you.

What I was saying is the reason for ( and our understanding of that reason) any certain code rule is immaterial. It wouldn't matter if the reason was simply a whim of the CMP. The reason doesn't concern us, the words do.

Charlie's Rule- The code says what it says.

IMO the code says you can use white for the supply to the switch but not for the return conductor to the switched outlet. Travelers only go to switches, they do not go to the switched outlet.

Sorry if I upset you, it was not my intention.
 
480sparky said:
The difference is a foot of wire will always cost you the same. Whereas labor, you have a great deal of variables.
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Yes, I'm definitely aware of the "Material is cheap, labor is expensive" principle, although this doesn't generally apply to non-residential work. In commercial it's always possible to burn up some very high dollar equipment in a heartbeat.

Anyway, apparently many of the production EC's in my area don't get the "Material is cheap..." principle. I notice that they almost always use the cheap 18 cubic inch boxes, and end up with numerous box fill violations along the way. Not to mention the extra labor in cutting the wires extra short and stuffing them into the box. :roll:
 
480sparky said:
I vote for 408.4. It's not just violated. It's totally ignored.
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I'm not sure I have ever seen a panel that I didn't install that wasn't in violation of 408.4.Always at leasr a few unmarked.
 
peter d said:
...Anyway, apparently many of the production EC's in my area don't get the "Material is cheap..." principle. I notice that they almost always use the cheap 18 cubic inch boxes, and end up with numerous box fill violations along the way. Not to mention the extra labor in cutting the wires extra short and stuffing them into the box. :roll:
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Probably the same folks who like to mount metal boxes to wood framing using roofing nails......:mad:
 
480sparky said:
Probably the same folks who like to mount metal boxes to wood framing using roofing nails......:mad:
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Yeah, that's them. How did you know?

They use roofing nails to mount anything that doesn't come with nails already. :roll:
 
peter d said:
Yeah, that's them. How did you know?

They use roofing nails to mount anything that doesn't come with nails already. :roll:
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I'm from Iowa.... that's how the farmers do it. They always have roofing nails around.
 
brian john said:
Why? and whats the concern?
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Yea, I figured someone would ask. I just don't like it. IMPO, it's totally cheesy and cheap. Gimme a DeWalt and a 5/16" hex bit.....

Ever see a panel nailed to the studs? The nails have an occasional tendency to work loose.
 
The most commonly ignored code rule

If i can get back to the subject. I thought sure someone would mention 680.72 There may be a nice access panel but try to get at the motor or change a receptacle facing away from you.
 
mdshunk said:
peter d said:
Really? Any particular reason?

I always wire 3-ways in a manner that will use the least amount of wire.
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The labor spent making up all those connections in the ceiling box can sometimes outweigh the cable savings. Just depends. I try not to do it that way unless I have some compelling reason, like in old work where it'll be easier to just fish one 14-3 to each switch box.
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I wouldn't do 2 deadend 3-ways that spider out of the light box for a different reason. . You end up with too many junctions behind the light fixture. . I don't want to drop light fixtures when I'm troubleshooting or fixing connection problems. . Plus if you fill the light box with wires, the chance of pinching a neutral and getting AFCI issues goes up.
 
dnem said:
I wouldn't do 2 deadend 3-ways that spider out of the light box for a different reason. . You end up with too many junctions behind the light fixture. . I don't want to drop light fixtures when I'm troubleshooting or fixing connection problems. . Plus if you fill the light box with wires, the chance of pinching a neutral and getting AFCI issues goes up.
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This logic makes no sense to me. If you're talking about making it easier for yourself, why would you have to go back and troubleshoot your own installation in the first place? Is it that hard to make up a box without making a bad splice or shorting something out? :confused:

As for troubleshooting someone else's work, we're electricians.We get paid to drop lights and take devices out when something doesn't work, whether the feed is at the light, the switch, or a jbox some place else. It makes no difference to me how the last guy wired it.
 
peter d said:
This logic makes no sense to me. If you're talking about making it easier for yourself, why would you have to go back and troubleshoot your own installation in the first place? Is it that hard to make up a box without making a bad splice or shorting something out? :confused:

As for troubleshooting someone else's work, we're electricians.We get paid to drop lights and take devices out when something doesn't work, whether the feed is at the light, the switch, or a jbox some place else. It makes no difference to me how the last guy wired it.
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I agree, Your either good or your not.
 
It sure is a lot easier making up splices in a switch box than it is in a ceiling box. You're standing on the floor, nice and flat. You can move around. If you drop something, you only need to bend over.

In the ceiling, you're limited to little movement because you're standing on a ladder. It takes time to set that ladder up, and energy to climb it. If you drop something, you gotta climb down, then climb back up. You are standing on a slice of aluminimum about 3" wide, so your feet start to hurt. Your head is cranked back. Crap falls in your eyes.

Personally, the only splices I'll do in the ceiling box is to the fixture.
 
480sparky said:
It sure is a lot easier making up splices in a switch box than it is in a ceiling box. You're standing on the floor, nice and flat. You can move around. If you drop something, you only need to bend over.

In the ceiling, you're limited to little movement because you're standing on a ladder. It takes time to set that ladder up, and energy to climb it. If you drop something, you gotta climb down, then climb back up. You are standing on a slice of aluminimum about 3" wide, so your feet start to hurt. Your head is cranked back. Crap falls in your eyes.

Personally, the only splices I'll do in the ceiling box is to the fixture.
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Your just showing your age, I have no problem making splices in a ceiling box. :wink: :grin:
 
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