The Sufficiency of NEC rules

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Is it me or did two threads somehow combine here? The balcony railing was not part of this thread, it was from another thread, yet the last few posts were continuation of the balcony railing:?

Post 74 is the first one that appears to me to belong to another thread, and most of what is after that is responses to that thread topic.
 
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kwired said:
Is it me or did two threads somehow combine here? The balcony railing was not part of this thread, it was from another thread, yet the last few posts were continuation of the balcony railing:?

Post 74 is the first one that appears to me to belong to another thread, and most of what is after that is responses to that thread topic.
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You didn't see the "DETOUR" sign >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>;)
 
Actually if the balcony is a stand alone one, meaning no metal posts, just a metal balcony attached to a wood frame building, aren't you safer if it wasn't bonded, as is no reference to ground?​
 
cowboyjwc said:
Actually if the balcony is a stand alone one, meaning no metal posts, just a metal balcony attached to a wood frame building, aren't you safer if it wasn't bonded, as is no reference to ground?​
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Depends on whether there is any possible source of touch potential to "real" ground, like a receptacle outlet, water tap or grounded door frame. If there is a grounded surface within touching distance, you would be only marginally safer if at all with both the balcony and the railing floating together instead of balcony grounded and railing floating.
 
GoldDigger said:
Depends on whether there is any possible source of touch potential to "real" ground, like a receptacle outlet, water tap or grounded door frame. If there is a grounded surface within touching distance, you would be only marginally safer if at all with both the balcony and the railing floating together instead of balcony grounded and railing floating.
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Well of course there's always an "if" factor. I once got shocked on a second story wood deck, on a wood ladder, with insulated plyers, but it was raining. Quick lesson in grounding there.
 
kwired said:
If it were grounded there is not much of an argument:?
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The point is if the metal railing of the balcony is grouted to the concrete balcony, it is effectively grounded and so if there is any possibility of touching both the energized conductive part of the receptacle in the balcony and the railing simultaneously, there is risk of electrocution.
kwired said:
Bonding is what we are discussing how are we supposed to forget about it:?
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Because if the said railing is bonded to the exposed conductive part of the receptacle, the risk of shock/electrocution will not arise even when the upstream OCPD does not operate within the 'safe' time on fault to the exposed metal part of the receptacle.

kwired said:
What rules do you want that have not already been mentioned?
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I want to know which code rule states what are to be connected to the EGC in a residence. Thanks.
 
Sahib said:
The point is if the metal railing of the balcony is grouted to the concrete balcony, it is effectively grounded and so if there is any possibility of touching both the energized conductive part of the receptacle in the balcony and the railing simultaneously, there is risk of electrocution.

Because if the said railing is bonded to the exposed conductive part of the receptacle, the risk of shock/electrocution will not arise even when the upstream OCPD does not operate within the 'safe' time on fault to the exposed metal part of the receptacle.


I want to know which code rule states what are to be connected to the EGC in a residence. Thanks.
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Just because it's a concrete deck, doesn't mean it's "effectively grounded", if it doesn't have a reference to "earth ground".
 
kwired said:
Is it me or did two threads somehow combine here? The balcony railing was not part of this thread, it was from another thread, yet the last few posts were continuation of the balcony railing:?

Post 74 is the first one that appears to me to belong to another thread, and most of what is after that is responses to that thread topic.
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Confounded, confabulation, conflation and obtuse, obstructive obfuscation abound.
More so when a meritorious member manifestly makes multiple posts.........:D
 
kingpb said:
kwired - You mention an engineer not being involved, which is not mandatory, but certainly someone with expertise in grounding and ground grid design, including the calculations must be involved, otherwise how do you know for certain the grounding is sufficient?
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I specifically stated that someone with expertise in the matter be involved. I don't care if it's your grandmother. If they can show that the appropriate standards have been adhered too and done the calculations that have been accepted, by industry consensus that the design meets those standards, then by default will be deemed appropriate. Does this mean no one will ever get hurt, absolutely not. But certainly chances are much greater they will not. Which, cannot be said for an installation based on, "that's what we've always done", or "it meets code".
 
Besoeker said:
Confounded, confabulation, conflation and obtuse, obstructive obfuscation abound.
More so when a meritorious member manifestly makes multiple posts.........:D
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And yet the topic from other thread still continues as if nothing happened:huh:
 
Sahib said:
The point is if the metal railing of the balcony is grouted to the concrete balcony, it is effectively grounded and so if there is any possibility of touching both the energized conductive part of the receptacle in the balcony and the railing simultaneously, there is risk of electrocution.

Because if the said railing is bonded to the exposed conductive part of the receptacle, the risk of shock/electrocution will not arise even when the upstream OCPD does not operate within the 'safe' time on fault to the exposed metal part of the receptacle.


I want to know which code rule states what are to be connected to the EGC in a residence. Thanks.
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If concrete balcony is not on grade, is not supported via concrete or metal structure that is grounded, then the balcony is not grounded. If the railing happens to become energized you can do exotic dancing on it if you wish, and have no risk of electric shock, you are no different than a bird on a bare overhead conductor. Bring something of different potential in close proximity and you increase the risk of shock or electrocution, but same risk goes for any metal object that has similar circumstances whether it be indoors or outdoors. We have many metal objects around that we do not typically bond to the electrical grounding system. Some of them include metal doors, window casings, metal roofing, siding, metal hand railings (sound familiar), complete metal piping systems are usually grounded, but isolated metallic sections of a system often are not, drainage gutters and downspouts, there are countless small metallic objects too numerous to mention that are not bonded to the electrical grounding system, from simple nails or screws into non conductive materials to drain grates, or cabinet hinges or other similar hardware or even portable furnishings with metallic parts.
 
Sahib said:
I want to know which code rule states what are to be connected to the EGC in a residence. Thanks.
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No rule that specifically applies to a residence. The general rule is to bond all non current carrying parts of any electrical equipment, and about the only non electrical equipment that is mentioned is in 250.104, which pretty much only mentions metal piping systems and structural metal.
 
kwired said:
No rule that specifically applies to a residence. The general rule is to bond all non current carrying parts of any electrical equipment, and about the only non electrical equipment that is mentioned is in 250.104, which pretty much only mentions metal piping systems and structural metal.
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Perhaps the balcony railing is structural? That must be why it is a large I beam. :)
 
iwire said:
Nothing was merged, get over it and move on. :)
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I don't think there was any error on the forum, just that sahib posted a reply to another thread but posted it in this thread, and we kind of never noticed, partly because some of the conversation was similar topic.
 
kwired:
The reason the topic from another thread is brought here is the same as why this was started in the first place: to know about the sufficiency NEC rules.Also the OP of that thread specifically states there is no receptacle in the balcony. I found the first reply from Don not mentioning about the simultaneous touching of exposed metal part of a receptacle and grounded balcony metal railing and the risk of shock associated with. So I thought the code rule could have a word about it and so brought it here.

So your quoting of NEC rule below
kwired said:
No rule that specifically applies to a residence. The general rule is to bond all non current carrying parts of any electrical equipment, and about the only non electrical equipment that is mentioned is in 250.104, which pretty much only mentions metal piping systems and
structural metal.
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indicates there is no mention in the Code about the risk associated with 'simultaneous touching' of exposed non-current carrying metal part of an electrical system and any other adjacent extraneous grounded metal other than what is mentioned in 250.104 above. Isn't?
 
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