Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

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aelectricalman

aelectricalman

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Location
KY
I have gone into a home that is only 3 years old to find out that a dishwasher (which shares a wall with the laundry room - or back to back with a wall dividing the two) is tied to a sole plug in the laundry room. (Not the Washer plug).

A. From my understanding, the dishwasher circuit along with any kitchen circuit can not leave the kitchen/Dining. If that is the case, I don't see how this passed code. I guess the inspector overlooked it. Then again I could be wrong. Is this a violation?
 
M

midget

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

And I thought the laundry room receptacles were suposed to be on their own circuit, too, right?
 
B

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

I don't see any reason that a the circuit which serves the dishwasher can't leave the kitchen. It is not a small appliance circuit.

Depending hoe you read the code, any circuit that serves the laundry area can't leave the laundry area or serve other outlets. In that case, you have a violation. However, some feel that once you meet the requirement of the at least one receptacle required for the laundry, everything else is excess of the code and therefore can be wired any way you want.

In my opinion, the installation is of poor design, but not necessarily a safety hazard.
 
aelectricalman

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Just to be clear on the issue. The washer dedicated line is in place. The plug in question is separate from the washer dedication but in the same room. I feel that it was done as a way to avoid sending a new circuit to feed just one plug.
 
J

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Is there a chance that the dishwasher was an afterthought or the home run was left out? Or maybe it was the extra outlet in the laundry that was left out, and the electrician took an easy way out ?
 
M

midget

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Hmm...I see. I always read it as laundry room recepts. had to be by themselves, but I guess that's not the case. I'll have to look again. :)
 
aelectricalman

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Could someone please show me where it is legal or illegeal. I want to fix her existing problem ( not related to this issue), but she may need to go back on the Homebuilder for sloppy non-code work. I hate to charge her for work she can get done for free.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

I'd say it isn't a code violation if the dishwasher pulls less than 50% of the circuit. 210.23(A)(2).
 
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

I don't see the violation either. In regards to the article George noted that could be an issue. You could actually feed some counter receptacles with this circuit too as long as you have already staisfied the minimum code requirements. :D

[ December 27, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
charlie

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

I am not sure how you get around that statement. :D
 
J

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

I too thaught it said no other outlets but 210.52 f only says it must have at least one.
Checked this in 99 and 02 did it change or was i confused?
 
aelectricalman

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Thank you for that helpful insight. I think that regarless of the ruling, the dishwasher would carry over half of the load on the circuit at 80
% So there is another reason. Charlie, thank you for that post. Thank you all as well.
 
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Originally posted by aelectricalman:
Thank you for that helpful insight. I think that regarless of the ruling, the dishwasher would carry over half of the load on the circuit at 80
% So there is another reason. Charlie, thank you for that post. Thank you all as well.
Click to expand...
Why are you using 80% of the circuit rating to determine the load on the circuit?
 
charlie

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Jim, you are correct:

210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

However, it doesn't say you can't add to the circuit or that you are limited to just one receptacle outlet. This says to me that you can have a receptacle outlet for the washer and also install an additional receptacle outlet on the opposite wall for the iron.

My previous post says you can't leave the laundry room and pick up anything else. :D
 
J

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

So do we agree that this is a violation ? There is room to read this as the one for the washer took care of the required.As always it's clear as mud
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

aelectricalman posted December 27, 2004 09:12 PM The washer dedicated line is in place. The plug in question is separate from the washer dedication but in the same room.
Click to expand...
From that I take it that the DW is connected to a circuit other than the Laundry Circuit, therefor 210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits doesn't apply (that's not about the room, its about the circuit, right?

The DW is a fixed piece of equipment worthy of a circuit in some form, but it is not a "small appliance" therefor the circuit that supplies the DW is not a small appliance circuit (which is restricted to locations that don't include the laundry).

If the DW is cord connected 400.8(2) kicks in.

If the DW is hard wired, 210.23(A)(2) seems to be the most important consideration, so the DW must have a nameplate rating of 900 watts for a 15A circuit or 1200 watts for a 20A circuit.
 
physis

physis

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

by aelectricalman:

is tied to a sole plug in the laundry room. (Not the Washer plug).
Click to expand...
The plug in question is separate from the washer dedication but in the same room.
Click to expand...
I don't know what to make of this.

Is there a dedicated laundry circuit?

210.11(C)(2) says the laundry circuit shall have no other outlets.

I think the question is "is there a dedicated receptacle for the laundry?"

Also make sure 210.52(F) Ex.1 doesn't apply.
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

By Charlie: However, it doesn't say you can't add to the circuit or that you are limited to just one receptacle outlet. This says to me that you can have a receptacle outlet for the washer and also install an additional receptacle outlet on the opposite wall for the iron.
Click to expand...
I can't see that the ironing receptacle has to be on the same required laundry circuit, and I don't see where you can't supply additional receptacles off a general purpose circuit for other for other equipment.

Putting the ironing receptacle on with the washer and or dryer circuit could cause problems. We have put a general purpose circuit receptacle in the laundry room many times for using a vacuum or radio even a TV. as long as it is not on the laundry circuit.

I think what he has would be a very hard call to go back on the original EC. And as AL pointed out if the Dishwasher doesn't draw over those wattages it wouldn't be a violation, maybe not the best design but that's not the NEC is about.

But this does bring out about one thing that I have noticed around here is I have gone back on a few houses that passed inspection and find many (not allowed appliance's) on the SA circuits. I just don't think this is one of the areas that gets checked often. some of them are ice makers, micro-mates, dishwashers, compactors. As these should not be on the SA circuits.

And I do have a problem I think needs to be address with UL as to allowing these peak values for wattages on appliances as I just had a air compressor that boasted a 5hp rating but only had a 15 amp cord, The inspector told me I had to have at least a 40 amp circuit as it would draw over 31 amps @ 120 volts. I tried to get him to understand that these ratings are some kind of peak rating and not the actual true rating. I had to have the home owner remove it until after the final. :roll: The problem is even on the motor there is no amperage or true HP as it just says special.
 
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