Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

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George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Service Manager
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Originally posted by charlie:
210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

I am not sure how you get around that statement. :D
If a laundry circuit was installed at the washing machine, and it has no other outlets, then 210.11(C)(2) has been satisfied. What if this laundry was part of an open room, or in a basement? I think it's pretty clear to us on a daily basis that if the washer is in the basement, we don't automatically put the basement GFI on the washer circuit. Has the entire basement has been converted to a laundry area just because there's a washer sitting in it?

I think that regarless of the ruling, the dishwasher would carry over half of the load on the circuit at 80% So there is another reason.
It would take a pretty slow dishwasher to have to satisfy the continuous loading requirements. Is the dishwasher going to run for three hours or more without stopping? If not, then the 80% rule wouldn't apply.

A dedicated circuit for the laundry is a good idea, that the washer is fed from a heavy-duty, lightly loaded circuit. If people want to add a high shelf, throw a general purpose 15 amp receptacle from their lighting circuit up by their shelf to plug their radio in, so they can groove to Frank Sinatra while they're sorting clothes, I think most of us would understand this and not scream 'code violation' and run from the room.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Having read through this discussion, I conclude that this is a design issue, not a code violation. If your customer has lived in this house for three years without having a nuisance trip, then perhaps this need not be "fixed." Tell her what you think she should do, give her a price, and let her choose.
 

guesseral

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

If the laundry circuit is installed as required, and the dishwasher shares a circuit with a rec in the laundry room (an extra rec not the laundry curciut) then remove the extra rec and blank off the box. Then the laundry has it's one required circuit and the other is just a JB. But as long as the laundry circuit is in place I don't a problem the way it is, unless the appliance load is over 50% or 80% if cord and plug connected. The code requires atleast one laundry circuit but does not state that other convience outlets are not allowed.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

The code requires at least one receptacle, supplied by at least one 20-ampere circuit to serve the laundry.

A second receptacle is added to the room.

A. Is this receptacle in addition to the minimum requirement thus permitted to be served by any branch circuit.

or

B. Does this receptacle become a laundry receptacle since it is in the laurdry area and thus required to be served by a 20-ampere laundry circuit.


The wording that bothers me is the "at least one" part, meaning more than one could be expected and should be counted. Then again, 210.11(C)(1) and (2) also say "as required by 210.52(B) and 210.52(F)" respectfully, whereas 210.11(C)(3) makes no reference to what specific receptacles are included.

I think this is just poorly written sections. I don't think the intent is for general purpose receptacles to be installed in locations where small appliance and laundry receptacles are required. Just my opinion.
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

That's why it bothers me when requirements bounce around the code book.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Originally posted by bphgravity:
A. Is this receptacle in addition to the minimum requirement thus permitted to be served by any branch circuit.

or

B. Does this receptacle become a laundry receptacle since it is in the laundry area and thus required to be served by a 20-ampere laundry circuit.
My answer is ?A.?

Article 210.11(C)(2) says that the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F) can have no other outlets. It does not say that every outlet in the room was put there because of 210.52(F). When you go to 210.52(F), it says that you have to put in one or more outlets ?for the laundry.? I can put another outlet in that room without intending that it serve the laundry. For example, I can put two outlets close to each other (and close to the laundry tub), expecting that the owner will own a couple of washers. I can then add an outlet across the room (far away from the laundry tub), and easily claim that this third outlet does not serve the laundry. Therefore, neither 210.52(F) nor 210.11(C)(2) comes into play. Therefore, this third outlet can serve the kitchen?s dishwasher. It would be a bad design choice, in my opinion, but not a code violation.
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

Taking all into consideration and doing a bit of investigating myself, I have concluded that the code book needs to have this clarified in 2008. I agree with the most recent statment. Thanks everyone.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

the (s) one the end of the word "outlet(s)" could have been put there to mean if more than one laundry room is installed in a house then it would be required to supply both?

Or if the laundry equipment is seperated more than the 12' that would put the equipment more than the required 6' away from the receptacle then it would be required to add another receptacle to meet the 6' requirment and it would have to be on the laundry circuit?

I think the (s) would fit both of these.
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

If a formal interpretation is generated does that automaticly cause that peice of code to get rewritten in the next cycle? (Obviously it's lacking somehow if that's necessary). Or must we still petition the writers seperately from the formal interpretation?
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

A request for a formal interpretation must be framed in such a way that it can be answered with either a yes or a no. As far as I know, it does not automatically generate a proposal for the next cycle. Also, some jurisdictions rewrite the portion about formal interpretations (like Indiana) and make the formal interpretation worthless. Therefore, a proposal is the only way to go. :D
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Theres some funny stuff going on in this kitchen!

You guys just won't fix it by yourselves. :D

That's funny about Indiana.

Editted because I can't type two sentences right.

[ December 29, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
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