This ever happened to you, Trouble shooting call, problem elusive?

[satcom]

A simple resi troubleshoot like this shouldn't have taken nearly that long. I've had repairs take six hours but never a simple tshoot.

I think you jumped around too much.


There are only a handful of jboxes on a typical circuit. You knew from the first switch box that the issue was downstream. That shold have cut the number of possible places in half.

I bet anyone could could be fast on trouble shoot unless they had to remove a few ceiling light fans on the circuit or, find a buried J box in a block all, or trouble shoot a handy mans basement electrical work, I would say in the real world 1 out of 10 troubleshoots will be the zip thru jobs, when you have a plenty of years of service work under your belt, you begin to understand just how much hack work is out there. In my opinion, he did ok with the 6 hours.

 

[e57]

That tells you that the neutral is open between that sw box and the source......right?

A simple resi troubleshoot like this shouldn't have taken nearly that long. I've had repairs take six hours but never a simple tshoot.

I think you jumped around too much.

A wiggy is the only tool you usually need on something like this.

There are only a handful of jboxes on a typical circuit. You knew from the first switch box that the issue was downstream. That shold have cut the number of possible places in half.

You said you had power at that switch box. 1) Turn off the breaker and see where the circuit goes. 2) Kill power going OUT of the sw box and you will know what outlets are upstream and which are downstream of that location.

If you believe in karma, send them a refund.

I disagree a little - Some places you walk in - and find it is not so 'plain vanilla'. You find J-boxes in attics that serve no purpose, the results of multiple remodels and additions peiced together, J-boxes with 4-5 circuits in them, etc. And in a case like this - 1/2 of the stuff you need to get to is buried behind general detritus and knick-knackery....

I do agree with the isolation of the circuit and splitting the circuit in half each time to narrow focus - but sometimes that is not as simple at is seems due to the above.

On the karma note - you're right - he did not actually FIND anything - just kicked it around a little and it started working - but found no "Cause".

 

[220/221]

There of course can be issues on those nightmare jobs but this didn't really sound like that. It sounded more like a lack of experience. It sounded like a simple loose connection in something he took apart. If he took the problem splice apart and checked it, he would have known what it was.

One of my longest simple tshoots took about two hours. There was a neutral failure in the cable between two switch boxes. Stock NM system, nothing had been touched, reworked or added. Cable was inaccessible.

I found it within a half hour but I killed another 1.5 hours because I couldn't accept that there was a conductor failure in a cable. I had to be 1000% sure before I started cutting holes and refeeding cable.

Even after I cut some drywall and refed it, I never did find the faulty part of the cable. I really wanted to see whatever it was but it wasn't worth cutting more drywall than necessary.

Not trying to be a bad ass, just tough love. Slow down, think it thru and follow the circuit.

 

[MarkWhite]

One of my longest simple tshoots took about two hours. There was a neutral failure in the cable between two switch boxes. Stock NM system, nothing had been touched, reworked or added. Cable was inaccessible.

Back in the day when I was still pulling rope I found a piece of NM that had a broken conductor in it.

Fortunately it was at a switch I was making up.

I thought they tested these cables before they left the plant.

 

[e57]

There of course can be issues on those nightmare jobs but this didn't really sound like that. It sounded more like a lack of experience. It sounded like a simple loose connection in something he took apart. If he took the problem splice apart and checked it, he would have known what it was.

There may be some more complications to it - and yeah - sure i'm reading between the lines....

It actually sounds as if the HO had been sticking his hand where it did not belong....

What I did find was: three ways installed correctly by owner, alot of plug strip loads plugged in, a non functioning smoke detector on the same hot, removed no change and alot of switches that had been replaced by the owner

I can remember this one job I went to - which has cemented my opinion about HO's and troubleshooting work - FOREVER! THEY LIE TO YOU....

I went to this one place and the HO had told me 'Oh it worked just fine until the other day...' After mapping it all out, and pulling my hair out tracing it - I realized - IT NEVER WORKED. It was NEVER FED.... All of the work was new, and 'hack-jack' - and when Hubby wasn't around - I got it from the Wife... I asked - "This is an addition you guys did - and it never worked - right?" A:"Yep.... :roll:"

 

[LarryFine]

I agree the troubleshoot took longer than necessary, and the cause could have been ascertained right away if the work had been done while hot with a lamp plugged into a non-working receptacle, or with a dead light on the circuit.

I find most receptacle-box problems this way without even removing a single plate. The lights will flicker when you move the receptacle with the intermittent connection, and usually turns out to be a loose stab, as others have mentioned.

 

[zappy]

It sounds like you found the problem under the big wire nut of neutrals. An open neutral with a lighting load will read energized to line voltage. I believe you made better connections putting it back

I agree. I seen loose connections when someone puts too many wires in a wirenut.

 

[growler]

Problems like these, are common service calls, and over the years we found that most of them were do to back wired push in devices, splices are a rare cause.

I agree that splices are a rare cause of circuit failure if those splices are made by a professional electrician but if the splices in question are made by a homeowner that's a horse of a different color.

If have found three or four bad splices in one room that were made by a homeowner trying to do their own work. You could visually see that one wire was not under the wire nut if you looked but the homewoner didn't pay attention to what they were doing.

It takes a little practice to make good splices when putting four wires under one wire nut and most electricians have this experience and most homeowners don't. It looks simple enough but that's probably because we have done it so many times. That's the first thing I try to teach a helper and that's how to make good splices and how to make them every time to avoid future problems.

 

[e57]

Here are some great ways to ensure a bad splice:

1. Maximize use of the circuit by getting as much as you can on each circuit, and using as few as possible. 2400 watts for each 20A, and 1800 watts for each 15A circuit.
2. Strip your conductors several days before you splice them, and allow as much exposure to the elements as you can. Morning dew, and rain can help.... A good golden brown will let you know when the conductors are almost ripe.... Dark brown = perfect.
3. Touch the conductors as much as possible to get good transfer of finger oils and dirt as possible. While handling bleach or other oxidizing or corrosive agents is not completely necessary prior to to this 'fingering' of the conductors - it does help....
4. Do not twist the conductors or make any attempts at mechanical connection of them, and by all means do not disturb the oxidation layer you have created in the steps above. Just place them side by side in a little soldier row without touching... You can do one better by skipping this step and back-stabbing devices where allowed.
5. If not back-stabbing: Apply the cheapest scotchlock knock off brand available, out of an open box soaked in rain water from the back of your open pick-up. While having that white/green corrosion inside them is not necessary at this step - it can be obtained in the next.
6. Allow more exposure to the elements - a few weeks before your inspection will do. Make sure the GC is not putting any windows or a roof...

Now only time will tell.... And your warantee will be up by then, and you may have retired or dead by then - but rest assured it will fail sooner or later....

 

[dmagyar]

Thanks for the constructive criticism

Thanks for the constructive criticism

Thanks for all the suggestions, which if I had not employed this time, then those will be filed for future use. I did mention that the folks were moving, but didn't accuartely relay how many boxes, & household items were piled everywhere, I would have loved to be able to post a picture of the overall mess, but didn't want to embarrass the HO. Oh also there were three dogs underfoot. Had I not been thinking myself that this took too long I would have done just like many before me and not posted anything of my experiences. I wanted to improve my performance by posting this situation. I also didn't mention that though I got paid I had discounted the whole bill to an amount which seemed appropriate, Karma not withstanding.

Just a few words to "220/221"; at the first box which I openned, the problem was Upstream, not downstream. This point turned out to be the tail end of just one of the branches of the circuit, which though closest to the panel wasn't the point where it originated. This circuit was propagated around the garage, and adjacent hall, laundry room lighting, one ceiling smoke detector, outside eve mounted lighting, yard (ground) mounted flood light with accompanying switches, and seven receptacles in the back bedroom. I had to get into the attic to determine where the circuit split and went in three different directions (that was the ceiling smoke detector). The attic unless those in your respective area are different was worse than the downstairs area with clutter, debris.

As far as experience thats a relative term and until you're faced with a situation that tests your "experience" that same tool doesn't increase in the power to serve you in the future. You can gain some insight by reading about the problems others are having, but it takes on a whole new significance by experiencing it firsthand.

 

[growler]

Client was happy, he paid me and I left.

I also didn't mention that though I got paid I had discounted the whole bill to an amount which seemed appropriate, Karma not withstanding.

That's why the customer was happy. My point earlier was that if a customer pays for two trip charges and a total of 6 hours of trouble shooting they are normally not very happy even if it is totally justified.

I tell customers that I'm not a victom of "male pattern baldness" I pulled all this hair out over the years dealing with frustrating problems.

 

[e57]

Thanks for all the suggestions, which if I had not employed this time, then those will be filed for future use. I did mention that the folks were moving, but didn't accuartely relay how many boxes, & household items were piled everywhere, I would have loved to be able to post a picture of the overall mess, but didn't want to embarrass the HO. Oh also there were three dogs underfoot. Had I not been thinking myself that this took too long I would have done just like many before me and not posted anything of my experiences. I wanted to improve my performance by posting this situation. I also didn't mention that though I got paid I had discounted the whole bill to an amount which seemed appropriate, Karma not withstanding.

Just a few words to "220/221"; at the first box which I openned, the problem was Upstream, not downstream. This point turned out to be the tail end of just one of the branches of the circuit, which though closest to the panel wasn't the point where it originated. This circuit was propagated around the garage, and adjacent hall, laundry room lighting, one ceiling smoke detector, outside eve mounted lighting, yard (ground) mounted flood light with accompanying switches, and seven receptacles in the back bedroom. I had to get into the attic to determine where the circuit split and went in three different directions (that was the ceiling smoke detector). The attic unless those in your respective area are different was worse than the downstairs area with clutter, debris.

As far as experience thats a relative term and until you're faced with a situation that tests your "experience" that same tool doesn't increase in the power to serve you in the future. You can gain some insight by reading about the problems others are having, but it takes on a whole new significance by experiencing it firsthand.

I'll have to agree with all of the above - I've been there... Bizarre hacked together wiring - circuitous routes, owner hanging off your shoulder by his chin - frightened dogs, excited children, and piles of stuff that should've been in a dumpster ages ago... Then a brain teaser to locate with a clock ticking and a nervous house wife tapping her foot who looks at you as though you are a giant red dollar sign - or worse in her puny little mind....

On the other hand it could be a tract home - they were all built the same - and you've worked in all of them - fixing the same problem that you can point to from an arm chair you can quarter back from. Which is inevitable - someone always thinks they can do it better - faster - human nature. Don't let it get you....

 

[satcom]

Thanks for all the suggestions, which if I had not employed this time, then those will be filed for future use. I did mention that the folks were moving, but didn't accuartely relay how many boxes, & household items were piled everywhere, I would have loved to be able to post a picture of the overall mess, but didn't want to embarrass the HO. Oh also there were three dogs underfoot. Had I not been thinking myself that this took too long I would have done just like many before me and not posted anything of my experiences. I wanted to improve my performance by posting this situation. I also didn't mention that though I got paid I had discounted the whole bill to an amount which seemed appropriate, Karma not withstanding.

Just a few words to "220/221"; at the first box which I openned, the problem was Upstream, not downstream. This point turned out to be the tail end of just one of the branches of the circuit, which though closest to the panel wasn't the point where it originated. This circuit was propagated around the garage, and adjacent hall, laundry room lighting, one ceiling smoke detector, outside eve mounted lighting, yard (ground) mounted flood light with accompanying switches, and seven receptacles in the back bedroom. I had to get into the attic to determine where the circuit split and went in three different directions (that was the ceiling smoke detector). The attic unless those in your respective area are different was worse than the downstairs area with clutter, debris.

As far as experience thats a relative term and until you're faced with a situation that tests your "experience" that same tool doesn't increase in the power to serve you in the future. You can gain some insight by reading about the problems others are having, but it takes on a whole new significance by experiencing it firsthand.

Not to worry, you done good! and each one from here on, will turn you into an expert.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I've never walked away from one I couldn't fix, but I have had to step back from a few and regroup and rethink what was going on. A couple of times I even went home and slept on it, once waking up at 3am saying "Ah ha" and then hearing my wife tell me that I'm an idiot.:grin:

Had one that a friend called me to look at. Mobil home, some of the power went out during Thanksgiving. Went out and tripped the breaker and asked "so all of this was out?", "No only 4 of the outlets." Couldn't trace the wires, so thought about it for a minute, went outside and pulled down the porch light and a neutral came out from under the wire nut. Home owner asked "how did you know to look there?" "Well you said it was Thanksgiving, grandkids were over?" "Yes" "Running in and out of the house and slamming the door?" "Yes". "So it was either there or the switch." She thought I was a genius, but it's really just playing detective a little and thinking it through.

 

[Ohmy]

Walking away is tough. We are running a new circuit today for a problem we just can't seem to find. Very frustrating and costly for the customer.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Walking away is tough. We are running a new circuit today for a problem we just can't seem to find. Very frustrating and costly for the customer.

I've had a couple that I thought that I may have to do that too. What I always worried about was what would happen if someone else came along and found the problem and repaired it after you had "fixed" it.