Three phase transformer for connecting 480/277V inverters to a 208/120V service

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The transformer configuration can affect whether inverters can detect and shut down under an open phase condition from the utility.

With a delta primary, an open phase would cause the transformer to be driven with a single-phase L-L voltage across the delta winding that remains fully connected. The two other windings would be in series with each other, and each would share about 1/2 of the L-L voltage that's across the transformer terminals that are still driven. I think it's likely that inverters could reliably shut down under these conditions.

With a wye-grounded primary, an open phase going to the primary would leave two of the three windings still being driven by their respective L-N voltages. And so they would continue to induce magnetic flux through their associated leg of the transformer core with a 120 degree phase difference between them. But what happens in the leg that's no longer driven depends on the type of core construction used (e.g., 3-leg or 5-leg).

3-legs works fine under normal use because the sum of the fluxes going through each of the three legs stays close to zero with balanced 3-phase excitation voltages. In other words, there is no "zero sequence" flux. All of the flux passing through each leg returns through the other two legs. However, there is no adequate return path for zero sequence flux like there is through the extra legs of a 5-leg core. And so what happens in a 3-leg core under an open phase condition is that a voltage very close to the proper magnitude and phase shift is "regenerated" on the wye winding that's disconnected (and thereby maintains a net condition of no zero sequence flux). As a result the corresponding winding on the secondary also would have a regenerated voltage close to what it would normally be. But there would be little such voltage with a 5-leg core because the extra legs can pass any zero sequence flux. See the paper at the link below for more details.

The bottom line is that delta-wye and 5-leg Yg-Yg configurations should not prevent inverters from detecting an open phase condition, but there could be an issue with 3-leg Yg-Yg

 
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Does that happen with wye-wye, or just wye-delta (using the nomenclature where primary/utility side is first)? I'm not seeing why it would happen with a wye-wye.

Cheers, Wayne
Once again, and using the nomenclature that sets the side that faces the utility as the primary and named first, my question is what the reason is that many of us say that delta-wye transformers are preferable to wye-wye transformers to interconnect 480/277V inverters to 208/120V services. Wye-delta transformers are not in the scope of my question.
 
Does that happen with wye-wye, or just wye-delta (using the nomenclature where primary/utility side is first)? I'm not seeing why it would happen with a wye-wye.

The issue is the low impedance neutral. A delta winding will cause a low impedance neutral by virtue of circulating currents, so you will see a big effect if you have a wye:delta transformer (the problem seen when a normal 480V delta : 208V wye transformer is used in reverse).

I don't think you will see this with a pure wye:wye transformer bank made of 3 separate single phase transformers.

I think that a wye:wye wound on a common 3 leg core would show some derived neutral effects from the common flux coupling.

I think the case of a wye:wye feeding a downstream delta load is also worth considering.

-Jon
 
Seems like? Either it is or it isn't.
Here I made a sketch

EDIT nevermind brain fart i guess you'd just leave the neutral floating since its not a SDS, as you were gentleman... 🤣
 

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Once again, and using the nomenclature that sets the side that faces the utility as the primary and named first, my question is what the reason is that many of us say that delta-wye transformers are preferable to wye-wye transformers to interconnect 480/277V inverters to 208/120V services. Wye-delta transformers are not in the scope of my question.
That's right. But my concern is that some of the problems with a wye-delta configuration (not one you're considering) are being misattributed to a wye-wye configuration (one you're considering). Hence my questions.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Here I made a sketch
Your diagram shows a factory H0-X0 bond on the transformer. Is that common, and is it ever non-removeable?

With such a H0-X0 bond, if you land the primary neutral on its terminal, you don't have an SDS, and so there would be no secondary side N-G bond, and the primary EGC would be the secondary EGC.

Without any H0-X0 bond, the wye-wye can be wired as an SDS. The secondary N-G bond doesn't violate 250.24(A)(5) as it is "otherwise permitted in this article."

So far with the discussion of a using a wye-wye transformer, I have assumed that it would have a 4-wire supply on the utility side. Whether it could be supplied with just 3 wires on the utility side, and whether that would mitigate some of the potential negatives mentioned, merits discussion.

Cheers, Wayne
 
The issue is the low impedance neutral. A delta winding will cause a low impedance neutral by virtue of circulating currents, so you will see a big effect if you have a wye:delta transformer (the problem seen when a normal 480V delta : 208V wye transformer is used in reverse).

I don't think you will see this with a pure wye:wye transformer bank made of 3 separate single phase transformers.

I think that a wye:wye wound on a common 3 leg core would show some derived neutral effects from the common flux coupling.
OK, so with a 4-wire wye utility primary supply in all cases, I'm in agreement on the case of any wye-delta transformer configuration; if the sum of the 3 supply voltages is not zero, then the delta secondary will have a net voltage going around the loop, causing circulating currents, etc.

I'm also in agreement for the case of a wye-wye from 3 separate single phase transformers, or a 3-phase transformer with a 5-leg core. Then as far as I can see the wye-wye will just scale each primary L-N voltage vector per the turns ratio. You could hook up a high-leg delta supply on the primary and get a high-leg delta system on the secondary, for example.

So what happens with a wye-wye 3-phase transformer with a 3-leg core? The 3 leg-core imposes the condition that the sum of the fluxes induced by each primary coil add to 0 instantaneously at each point in time, I believe? If the sum of the 3 supply voltages is non-zero, then that can't possibly be true. So if you just hook it up and energize it (even for the case where there are no secondary coils at all), how does that discrepancy get resolved?

Cheers, Wayne
 
To be clear, my question is specifically regarding connecting 480/277V inverters to 208/120V services. The HV side does not face the utility.
I'm talking about transformer winding configurations in general, their use in PV systems or if the transformer is step up or step down is not material to the discussion.
 
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It's funny how transformer discussions quickly devolve into arguments over which side is the primary and secondary even though it has no bearing on the actual discussion. People just have to know!
 
I'm talking about transformer winding configurations in general, their use in PV systems or if the transformer is step up or step down is not material to the discussion.
Well, since you are using a HV side first notation, whether it is step up or step down is material to your comments, when what matters is primary vs secondary.
Since ggunn is the OP, I think he gets to specify that he is only interested in PV applications where the inverter side is wye. Presumably because that is most of what he works on.

I'd still be interested in a detailed answer to my post 11. Based on my last post, I think the answer would be possibly (B), (D), possibly (E) if the transformer uses a 3 leg core, and (F).

Cheers, Wayne
 
I'm talking about transformer winding configurations in general, their use in PV systems or if the transformer is step up or step down is not material to the discussion.
I started this thread to try to get an answer to a specific question, namely, when connecting a 480/277V inverter to a 208/120V service with a transformer which is wye on the secondary (inverter) side, is it important for the primary (utility) side to be delta rather than wye, or does it not make any difference?.
 
The transformer configuration can affect whether inverters can detect and shut down under an open phase condition from the utility.

With a delta primary, an open phase would cause the transformer to be driven with a single-phase L-L voltage across the delta winding that remains fully connected. The two other windings would be in series with each other, and each would share about 1/2 of the L-L voltage that's across the transformer terminals that are still driven. I think it's likely that inverters could reliably shut down under these conditions.
The delta primary almost always fails loss of phase commissioning tests if you depend on the inverter sensing the loss of phase. We have to put relay protection on the primary side to detect loss of phase to pass commissioning and get PTO. Maybe in theory it should work, but in the field, it does not.
 
I started this thread to try to get an answer to a specific question.
A lot of threads start like that. :rolleyes: But your question was "he has asked me for an explanation of why a delta primary is necessary." and I think the answer is pretty clear that it is not necessary. Everything else is just people talking about minutia.
 
Well, since you are using a HV side first notation, whether it is step up or step down is material to your comments, when what matters is primary vs secondary.
It's simply a notation to facilitate the discussion. You are reading way too much into it. The whole discussion is getting boring.
 
It's simply a notation to facilitate the discussion. You are reading way too much into it.
Sure, it's notation, and you clarified for me how it works. But others are using other terminology, and further info is required to translate between the two notations.

The whole discussion is getting boring.
I guess answering post #11 and explaining the underlying physics would also be boring?

Back to the OP so far we have:

A) there's no upside to wye wye, and the downsides include generally less availability and an extra conductor required on the primary side.

B) Either: (1) wye wye will work fine or (2) you need to avoid a 3 phase wye wye with a 3 leg core. Still looking for clarity on this question.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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