Tis The Season

[hbiss]

What are your thoughts about all the landscapers and others that come out every year to install outdoor holiday lighting? I just read a thread that went for 7 pages on another forum about how they hate GFIs. It's no wonder because there is no outdoor lighting listed for wet locations. These clowns use indoor extension cords, power strips, etc and leave everything lying on the wet ground, in roof gutters and buried under snow and wonder why the GFIs trip. Everything is cheap Chinese indoor stuff. Some even remove the GFI receptacles because their customers complain. How many people are injured from this?

What a HO does is one thing but apparently some of these guys make big money off of this service (some claim 500K/yr) and it's has really opened my eyes to regulation. Shouldn't there be "commercial" lighting systems listed for wet locations that should be required for outdoor displays? Shouldn't these guys be required to observe Art.590?

-Hal

 

[PEDRO ESCOVILLA]

you want someone to get a permit and inspection for christmas lights. i'm an inspector, and i think thats out of the realm. where does personal responsibilty kick in?

 

[ptonsparky]

Our inspectors are month(s) behind now, this lighting will be gone long before they get a chance to schedule it in. It takes deaths and or major fires before action would be considered. Have any statistics?

 

[charlie b]

I contend (and I know others who disagree) that the holiday lights themselves are outside the scope of the NEC. They are no different than your toaster or your floor lamp, being "utilization equipment." Does anyone think that plugging in a radio should require an electrician's license, a permit, and an inspection? My interpretation of the NEC rule concerning time limits for temporary holiday lighting is that it is talking about the receptacle and the wiring that serves the receptacle, not the string of lights you plug into the receptacle.

I have been known to remove the light bulb from an outdoor fixture that is controlled by an inside switch, screw a receptacle device into the socket, and plug holiday lights into that receptacle. I would call this a "temporary installation for holiday lights." At the end of the season (and in any event within 90 days), I could unplug the string of holiday lights, remove the receptacle device, put the normal light bulb back into the socket, and leave the light string hanging from the gutter all year long. By doing so, I will have removed the "temporary installation for holiday lights," and I would be using the gutter as a storage location for an unused set of lights.

 

[hillbilly1]

I contend (and I know others who disagree) that the holiday lights themselves are outside the scope of the NEC. They are no different than your toaster or your floor lamp, being "utilization equipment." Does anyone think that plugging in a radio should require an electrician's license, a permit, and an inspection? My interpretation of the NEC rule concerning time limits for temporary holiday lighting is that it is talking about the receptacle and the wiring that serves the receptacle, not the string of lights you plug into the receptacle.

I have been known to remove the light bulb from an outdoor fixture that is controlled by an inside switch, screw a receptacle device into the socket, and plug holiday lights into that receptacle. I would call this a "temporary installation for holiday lights." At the end of the season (and in any event within 90 days), I could unplug the string of holiday lights, remove the receptacle device, put the normal light bulb back into the socket, and leave the light string hanging from the gutter all year long. By doing so, I will have removed the "temporary installation for holiday lights," and I would be using the gutter as a storage location for an unused set of lights.

I agree with Charlie, it's more of a liability issue, than an NEC issue, nothing prevents you from plugging a toaster in on an extension cord and using it in the bath tub. (Except common sense, but that's we're Darwin comes in, LOL!)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I contend (and I know others who disagree) that the holiday lights themselves are outside the scope of the NEC. They are no different than your toaster or your floor lamp, being "utilization equipment."...

Not only do I agree, but I would go beyond that and say that most of what is in Article 422 is well beyond the scope of the NEC and should be removed.

 

[hbiss]

I do agree and I'm not saying that every installation should be inspected. I'm more concerned with the lighting equipment not being made or listed for wet locations. The "outdoor" label misleads people. To me most outdoor locations are wet when it comes to this kind of lighting. Same with "heavy duty outdoor extension cords". So maybe this is really a UL issue and the word "outdoor" should be prohibited and replaced with "dry locations only" or "wet locations"- however the device complies.

-Hal

 

[iwire]

I worry about my own work, beyond that not my concern.

We service a large outdoor shopping place and every year the Christmas decorations trip the GFCIs we installed for them.


Oh well, the GFCIs stay unless they get another contractor to remove them, I refuse.

 

[K8MHZ]

I worry about my own work, beyond that not my concern.

We service a large outdoor shopping place and every year the Christmas decorations trip the GFCIs we installed for them.


Oh well, the GFCIs stay unless they get another contractor to remove them, I refuse.

Just tell them that GFCI stands for Guarantees Failure of Christmas Illumination.

 

[kwired]

If these landscapers are actually removing GFCI's, then they are creating their own additional liabilities. Sorry to say it, but they will either never learn, or will learn the hard way when someone gets killed.

We have GFCI requirements for a reason. We have other rules and regulations for reason also, and those rules often get ignored too.

 

[Speshulk]

everything lying on the wet ground, in roof gutters and buried under snow

I have zip cords and extension cords laying in the snow powering Christmas lights on the trees in front of my house as we speak. Guess what? They're working just fine, just like they do every year.

 

[John120/240]

I have zip cords and extension cords laying in the snow powering Christmas lights on the trees in front of my house as we speak. Guess what? They're working just fine, just like they do every year.

I trust you used a GFCI protected recptacle to power these up ?

 

[kwired]

I have zip cords and extension cords laying in the snow powering Christmas lights on the trees in front of my house as we speak. Guess what? They're working just fine, just like they do every year.

They possibly do get somewhat overexcited over use of proper extension cords for this purpose, but IMO GFCI is the best thing out there for protecting those that don't know any better, until they try to defeat it somehow.

Zip cords, probably are not any more or less water resistant than any other cord identified for outdoor use, but water resistance is not the only thing evaluated to give a cord an outdoor rating. Other things like temperature and sunlight resistance can come into play.

The other reason we probably do not see a lot of deaths related to outdoor winter holiday lighting is the fact that the weather is typically colder and people dress with clothing that insulates them electrically. Go out in July and put up similar lights and you are less insulated, but conditions are likely more dry also. There are the times when things are just right and that is when GFCI is called upon to do its job, and it often does its job before some human is in the current path.

 

[charlie b]

Guess what? They're working just fine, just like they do every year.

And I trust that you are not going to treat the fact that no problems have occurred as proof that the practice is safe, and that problems cannot arise from the practice.

"An accident waiting for a place to happen will, given time, find that place." (Famous saying by some famous guy.)

 

[iwire]

I have zip cords and extension cords laying in the snow powering Christmas lights on the trees in front of my house as we speak. Guess what? They're working just fine, just like they do every year.

I have not needed my seat belt at all this year, I will still keep using it.