Training your apprentices

[daleuger]

I'm pretty new at it (just turned out JW about 6 months ago), and it's a little different being on the other side of the curve now. Sometimes you get that first year that can almost keep up with just a simple explanation, then you get that fourth year that can't even tie his shoes w/o you over his shoulder cracking a whip. I know it's where you've been what you've done. Hey I'm not too keen on the specific rules for wiring houses myself because I haven't done much of that. Mine's been mostly commercial/light industrial. This is a little different.

How do you deal with someone that you show them one thing and they get it right off, but when you show them something that should be simpler they keep tripping over themselves? I have a second year right now that can be trusted (to an extent) to make up panels, discos, motor starters, etc etc etc. Hand that same guy a bender to start making saddles or kicked 90's and you may as well have asked him to build a bridge to Hawaii. Any ideas? I thought they taught this stuff in school and on the job.....at least they did when I went through it.

 

[BryanMD]

An otherwise reliable and capable guy is worth making accomodations for. Help him to fill in the missing pieces but have a chat about it being his responsibility to actually improve his skills.

eg: in this case 1st part is show him a copy of the benfield manual to read. 2nd part is insist he buy his own. http://www.benfielddirect.com/

Another factor with bending is to ALWAYS use the same benders... is that happening now?

 

[resistance]

I knew J-men (over 5 years experience) that didn't know how to rough houses.

The problem is the person not wanting (or willing) to push him or herself passed a faulty company. What do I mean. You have people working for companies that keep them doing one specific task. Example: Those J-men that do not know how to rough homes, are the same people that stay with companies that limit their task. "Trim work only, no rough work." [It's called: Lacking responsibility for ones self]

 

[daleuger]

An otherwise reliable and capable guy is worth making accomodations for. Help him to fill in the missing pieces but have a chat about it being his responsibility to actually improve his skills.

eg: in this case 1st part is show him a copy of the benfield manual to read. 2nd part is insist he buy his own. http://www.benfielddirect.com/

Another factor with bending is to ALWAYS use the same benders... is that happening now?

I lay it out step by step and make the bends, put it there to look at, tell him to match it, ask ?'s if he's not sure, try it with a piece of solid wire first if you have to the whole nine yards......and trust me it's not the bender

He says he's ran pipe before but I'm having my doubts as to how much. I'm almost feeling sorry for the guy because he's really trying to keep his cool. I haven't even watered his hard hat or caulked his wire nuts or anything all week. I don't want this little SOB making me go soft cause he can't grasp pipe running.

I may have him take a look at that Benfield book. I've never seen one....never even heard of one till a few people mentioned it in a post on here a few weeks ago. Seems several people on here swear by it though. I keep learning every day too. :smile:

 

[daleuger]

I knew J-men (over 5 years experience) that didn't know how to rough houses.

The problem is the person not wanting (or willing) to push him or herself passed a faulty company. What do I mean. You have people working for companies that keep them doing one specific task. Example: Those J-men that do not know how to rough homes, are the same people that stay with companies that limit their task. "Trim work only, no rough work." [It's called: Lacking responsibility for ones self]

Yeah, I agree. I'm with a company now that's giving me a better mix, as my next one is gonna be. I'm lined up to start with a company in another province I'm moving to. About the end of March we're gonna be doing 30 some odd houses. If I don't know a bit by the end of that there's no hope for me. Just wish I could get more hours in the mean time, but now is not the time to job hunt.

 

[resistance]

I have a second year right now that can be trusted (to an extent) to make up panels, discos, motor starters, etc etc etc. Hand that same guy a bender to start making saddles or kicked 90's and you may as well have asked him to build a bridge to Hawaii. Any ideas? I thought they taught this stuff in school and on the job.....at least they did when I went through it.

This is what I was addressing! :wink:

 

[daleuger]

This is what I was addressing! :wink:

Are you a life long house roper? :roll:

 

[resistance]

Are you a life long house roper? :roll:

I guess I am--seeing that I'm a residential electrical contractor.:grin:


My main point: Many are not willing to move past their comfort zone (the comfort zone some companies push on them).

 

[daleuger]

I guess I am--seeing that I'm a residential electrical contractor.:grin:

1000 pardons for not knowing that about you. Dear sir, I am at your mercy. However can you find it in your little black raisin of a heart to forgive me?:smile:

 

[tkb]

I knew J-men (over 5 years experience) that didn't know how to rough houses.

The problem is the person not wanting (or willing) to push him or herself passed a faulty company. What do I mean. You have people working for companies that keep them doing one specific task. Example: Those J-men that do not know how to rough homes, are the same people that stay with companies that limit their task. "Trim work only, no rough work." [It's called: Lacking responsibility for ones self]

So 35 years in the trade and only wiring one house means that I am "lacking responsibility"?

 

[buddhakii]

I had the same problem about a year ago with a guy. He would get really frustrated and say screw it and put it up anyways. Put a stop to that in a hurry when I ripped down his pipe and did it myself. I used to get really frustrated with him too, which would make him even more angry and flustured. A year later though and I would let him run pipe in my house. Just stick with him. Start out with just letting him go on his own, and tell him it better look nice when he is done. See how much waste and time there is and on the next job he does do the same thing and it better look twice as good and done faster. good luck.

 

[JJWalecka]

How do you deal with someone that you show them one thing and they get it right off, but when you show them something that should be simpler they keep tripping over themselves? I have a second year right now that can be trusted (to an extent) to make up panels, discos, motor starters, etc etc etc. Hand that same guy a bender to start making saddles or kicked 90's and you may as well have asked him to build a bridge to Hawaii. Any ideas? I thought they taught this stuff in school and on the job.....at least they did when I went through it.

Effort, ambition, punctuality and trustworthiness are key to a good apprentice. In regards to craftsmanship it will come in time. If I see effort I don?t mind showing it over and over. Everyone learns differently and have different strengths. Perhaps a different approach to training is needed.

A good apprentice is an asset to a company.

Just my opinion

JJ

 

[daleuger]

Put a stop to that in a hurry when I ripped down his pipe and did it myself. I used to get really frustrated with him too, which would make him even more angry and flustured.. good luck.

I had a couple journeymen do that to me when I was learning and that's about all it accomplished too. When I really started to get the hang of it was working on this bigger job (5 story hospital) I worked with this really grouchy old timer that none of the other apprentices could stand, but I listened and soaked up everything I could. He and I got along great for months. The other apprentices on the job would all be asking me "How can you work with....?" He would pretty much just show me the prints for a few rooms and say go, then tell me what I did wrong for next time. By the end of that job I was a machine.

Perhaps a different approach to training is needed.

That's what I was asking suggestions for. A different approach other than screaming and throwing stuff. Not really my style but I can do that too. Teaching him how I was taught clearly isn't going to work.

 

[jrannis]

Not everyone has the ability to teach. In this trade it really is your responsibility to teach the apprentices that are assigned to you. Sometimes an apprentice is placed with you just for that reason. Sometimes it is random.
Ive had guys come up to me and tell me all about how I taught them one thing or another and most of the time I don't remember who they are or where it was. I can usually only remember the time I handed people their last check. The rest is fun.

 

[Fulthrotl]

How do you deal with someone that you show them one thing and they get it right off, but when you show them something that should be simpler they keep tripping over themselves? I have a second year right now that can be trusted (to an extent) to make up panels, discos, motor starters, etc etc etc. Hand that same guy a bender to start making saddles or kicked 90's and you may as well have asked him to build a bridge to Hawaii. Any ideas? I thought they taught this stuff in school and on the job.....at least they did when I went through it.

nobody's good at everything. pipe work requires visualization skills that some
people may not have in sufficient quantity. some people will pick it up after a
while, and some never will. some people can run glorious pipe racks, but a 4
way switch.... and they are in deep water...

expand it beyond electrical work.... i used to be a machinist and QC inspector
before i was an electrician. anything involving cutting and fitting, i am very
good at.... however, painting something? get someone else. anyone else.
get a blind dog with a brush in it's mouth. tie a second brush to it's tail... it's
still better than what i do.

i've got a friend who's a painting contractor. nice guy, and does fabulous
work. give him a chop saw, and send him off to put up crown molding?
it's painful to watch.

so, give your muppet mostly what he's good at, and a bit of what he isn't
good at, and he may learn, and you won't have a nonproductive, frustrated
employee.

when i was a first year apprentice, i asked for 100' of 1/2" emt and a bender
to take home and practice with. it took a saturday of playing in the garage
before i figured out some basic stuff. and, you don't have to get frustrated
watching him get frustrated... that's worth a bundle of thinwall any day.


randy

 

[daleuger]

Haha yeah.....I'm the same way with painting. Good advice, Fulthrtl. Of course, I'm not the one to talk to if he does need to take a couple hundred feet of pipe home to play with.:roll: He's just gonna have to do a lot of crap work for a while and a bit of pipe running cause we got a bit to do yet before we can start the stuff he's better with.

 

[resistance]

So 35 years in the trade and only wiring one house means that I am "lacking responsibility"?

If you had to ask this question, then you are lacking understanding!

 

[daleuger]

If you had to ask this question, then you are lacking understanding!

Man, that's harsh and true at the same time.

 

[infinity]

Over the years I have found that not everyone is good at running pipe just like not everyone is good at art or math. All three are more inter-related than we tend to think.

 

[ptonsparky]

The guys found a greenlee hydraulic bender in a customers storage shed so they used it on his project. I wasn't able to be there to give hints on its use from my limited experience with one, so they were on their own. When I saw the work a simple "That LLS even from my house!" brought a response of "Get your ass over here and do it yourself then!" A few days later I was back and everthing was the way it should be. Some time, proper encouragment and a bit of scrap are pretty small prices to pay for the look on faces that are proud of the art they created.

T&M job doesn't hurt either.