Twisting wires

[mulllet]

Re: Twisting wires

Jim
I personally do not take shortcuts to save time.
The quality of my work means more to me than saving a few minutes. I have applied thousands of
wire nuts and have yet had to go back to a splice.
I started this post in search of more insight into the matter. You would think the manufacturer
would know best and I have yet to see instructions that require twisting. If someone can
convince me that it is necessary I will convert
immediately.

 

[roger]

Re: Twisting wires

Mulllet, FWIW I don't think it's necessary per the manufacturers instruction, I just do it out of habit, and where years ago I instructed my subordinates to do it, I don't any more.

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Twisting wires

You probably are following them and tightening them properly.The problem is that some don't.Anyone that does service calls has found there share of wires that came loose or the nut got hot and burned off.I have worked at shops that didn't twist and on hot check found wires that fell out.I am not very worried if its only 2 wires as they almost always work, But if i have 5 #12 this just might fail.You have better helpers than i have if your not having problems with this.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Twisting wires

Rattus,

You are absolutely correct. . .rosin core. Brain F**t.

 

[rattus]

Re: Twisting wires

Al, I think you were just testing me!

 

[hurk27]

Re: Twisting wires

Charlie I do have the newer adapter for the drill or it will also fit a hand driver that will take a ?" bit and does a good job of twisting, but I'm with Jim as I had to go back and fix many splices that didn't hold up because someone got lazy and didn't turn the wire nut enough to twist them to the required 2 turns out of the connector. I see this more on 12awg's and 10awg's than 14awg's but when you use multiwire circuits you cant afford even one to loose connection. I was shown a video once from one of the manufactures of wire nuts and had a demonstration to show us how to put wire nuts on with out pre-twisting and it did show that when you remove the wire nut after you installed it the wires should be twisted just like you pre-twisted but when he was trying to install a wire nut on 3 #10's he got a little frustrated when he couldn't make them twist.
But the problem is like Jim said getting your guys to turn the wire nut enough to get the wires to twist.
I have had like Jim to many that would loose connection between the wire and try to use the spring in the wire nut for current which would over heat and burn the wire nut then the whole connection falls apart.

 

[iwire]

Re: Twisting wires

Originally posted by mulllet:
But I have have had people tell me it is a must when the instructions say otherwise.

The picture you posted of the wire connectors is the only time I have not seen the instruction require twisting either before or after. I have never seen that brand.

We use Ideals and they require twisting.

 

[iwire]

Re: Twisting wires

Originally posted by hurk27:
a demonstration to show us how to put wire nuts on with out pre-twisting and it did show that when you remove the wire nut after you installed it the wires should be twisted just like you pre-twisted

I agree with you Wayne but did you follow Mullets link?

The instructions on the bag say nothing about the wires being twisted when done.

All it says is "screw connector (clockwise) onto wires until tight"

They are Thomas & Betts 'Cyclone' wire connectors.

Bob

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Twisting wires

My method is to strip 1 inch from all conductors then twist tight as i can ,then cut it so 1/2 inch is still left.I have no failures.I went to the school of if its not broke dont fix it.
The idea of only stripping 5/16 scares me.What will be the cost if this is a shared neutral ? With my method i at least see that it is connected first.How will we sure if we cant see it ? Tapes can easily lie.Now if you care to show me live that you did 100 splices and then backed them off and still connected i will rethink if i am wrong.If so much as 1 fails out of a job that could be in the thousands then i can't risk it,can you ? This to me is like back stabbing receptacles.Took them years to see they had problems with #12 wires.Wonder how many fires were linked to that.

 

[charlie]

Re: Twisting wires

Back in the last century when I was still in the trade, I never paid any attention to the number of wires that would fit in a Wire Nut (I used only Ideal). I would pre-twist the wires together with my Klines and then use the wrench to put the Wire Nut on (there were times when I would crack the sides of a red and have to go get a blue). For what it is worth, I never had a bad connection but, looking back on it, it was not good workmanship.

 

[rattus]

Re: Twisting wires

There is something rewarding about making a nice tight twist with your Kleins, and it is easier on your fingers. Even an amateur can see that.

 

[stud696981]

Re: Twisting wires

I was taught to always twist the wires together with my Kleins first, then apply the wire nut. Even though it's not required, I can't recall ever having a bad connection doing it this way. Every service call I have been on involving wire nuts and a bad connection was the result of not twisting them on tight to make a solid connection. Personally I would rather take the extra minute and do a better job on something knowing that it will last and their will be no call backs for a poor connection.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Twisting wires

I would like a little clarification. In the end, is it desired that the wires are twisted, regardless of whether it is done by tightning the wirenut or by pretwisting? In other words, is there a time when it is not desirable to have the wires twisted around each other?

Here's where I'm going. If the wires don't get twisted somehow, they will be left lying parallel to each other. This opens the possibility that one or more wires may be sandwiched between the others and not be in contact with the threading of the wirenut and therefore is relying solely on the friction between the wires to maintain contact integrity. Doesn't seem like a real solid connection to me and could be pulled out of the wirenut. I have always twisted for two reasons. I was taught that way and I feel I am taking steps to make it a more secure fit.

Teach me the right way.

Bob

 

[kendog]

Re: Twisting wires

you are 100 % correct it dosen't matter what way you do as long as its done. I personally dont twist frist though. Pliers seem to cause small nicks in the wire this could lead to a potential arc if deep enough. I always twist my wire nut till there is at least 1" of twisted conductors behind the nut then I remove the nut and double check it. Better safe then sorry.

[ December 30, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]

 

[charlie]

Re: Twisting wires

Teach me the right way.

Bob, the right way is according to the listing and the manufacturers directions. Do it the way the package says to do it.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Twisting wires

Thanks. I know what you mean, Kendog, about the nicks in the solid core wire when using a pliers. This not only leaves potential for arcing but also damages the integrity of the wire itself, slightly as it may be.

It seems that in most cases where a connector is "screwed" on, the wires eventually require twisting although some require pretwisting while others prefer using the connector to do the twisting. What concerns me is that some posts expressed aggravation when they encountered twisted wires because it made it a little more difficult to make changes. Is this to suggest that in some cases the wires are not being properly twisted when the device instructions require it?

Do you inspectors out there watch for this or is this not considered a major concern in the industry? If not, should it?

Bob

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Twisting wires

In the end, is it desired that the wires are twisted, regardless of whether it is done by tightning the wirenut or by pretwisting?

Exactly!!

Just came from my shop where I made up a couple of wire-nut connections.

One of them, with the White wires, I pre-twisted and cut them to length. The Black wires were not pre-twisted. (first photo)

The wire-nuts were installed the way I always do them. (second photo)

Then the wire-nuts were removed. (third photo) Can anyone see any difference?

It took approximately twice as long to do the pre-twisted one.
All other factors being equal, I believe that I can install twice as many connectors in a given time than someone that pre-twists.

Ed

[ December 31, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Twisting wires

Ed, if most people who didn't pretwist had results like you do, most of us wouldn't be aware that pretwisting didn't occur.

You're right, I would swear to you that the black wires were pretwisted. You have proved to me that posttwisters have a place in the world too!

If only most of them were that thorough...

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Twisting wires

I for one am rethinking if i been wasting time pretwisting.The part that bothers me is the number of times i have removed the nut and seen they were not twisted and fell apart.I think i will start not pretwisting and back the nut off and check,if i pass with 100% after about 100 of them then fine,but if so much as one fails then this is to big of a risk to save a few minutes.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Twisting wires

Now Ed can you do that by hand with #12 or #10 wires?


But it does look like the wire nuts knick the wire more than the pliers do as to what Kendog pointed out. :roll:

[ December 31, 2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]