Two 20A GFI breaker circs (separate Neutrals) in 12" bury conduit.

I like that idea very much. Thanks Larry. I will consider my approach to the inspector. Finding the right way to ask a question can sometimes make the difference. Everybody wants to be considered, and that goes double for an inspector.
Sleeping on it, the obvious occurred to me: It is still two GFI circuits. GE panel. No such thing as a tandem GFI. Yet. Siemens approaches the question with their tandem AFCI. GFCI in the wings? Who knows. I will ponder on, and the inspector will have ethe final say. Thanks all.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
I think his issue with the two pole is that he ends up with a 240 volt circuit which negates the 12" burial depth in T300.5.
I would say that only applies if an MWBC is run. If it's two separate circuits, each with its own neutral, that's two 120V circuits, regardless of the voltage present between the ungrounded conductors of the two different circuits. So I'd say 2 single pole GFCIs without regard to which leg they are on is fine.

If someone says that no the ungrounded conductors need to be at 0V to each other, then after disagreeing I'd say that it would suffice to place the two single pole breakers appropriately at the time of installation; there's no need to worry about someone rearranging breakers in the future.

Lastly, if you do want to use a tandem because someone is worried about future breaker rearrangement, that obviously could be done by using two blank face GFCIs with a normal tandem.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I would say that only applies if an MWBC is run. If it's two separate circuits, each with its own neutral, that's two 120V circuits, regardless of the voltage present between the ungrounded conductors of the two different circuits. So I'd say 2 single pole GFCIs without regard to which leg they are on is fine.

If someone says that no the ungrounded conductors need to be at 0V to each other, then after disagreeing I'd say that it would suffice to place the two single pole breakers appropriately at the time of installation; there's no need to worry about someone rearranging breakers in the future.

Lastly, if you do want to use a tandem because someone is worried about future breaker rearrangement, that obviously could be done by using two blank face GFCIs with a normal tandem.

Cheers, Wayne
But that brings us back to 225.30. It's a catch-22.

It's too bad Table 300.5 doesn't say voltage to ground.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
As stated that's your opinion.
Given the definition of "voltage of a circuit," the only way for there to be a problem is if you consider the 4 conductors (A, B, Na, Nb), where loads are only connected A-Na and B-Nb, to be one circuit. Do you consider that one circuit? It's obviously two circuits, and each circuit is by the definition only 120V.

In fact, given that 240.4(A) says "A multiwire circuit shall be permitted to be considered as multiple circuits," I will go so far as to say that even if the conduit only contains an MWBC (A, B, N), if the MWBC only supplies 120V loads, we are therefore allowed to consider it as still two circuits, each of which would then be 120V. [And that we may simultaneously say that it is only one circuit for the purposes of applying 225.30. Win-win!]

IMO the reason that they want to keep it at no more than 120 volts with GFCI protection is incase someone hits it with a shovel.
You might be right, but they didn't write Table 300.5 in that fashion. We know the CMPs can generate language regarding the maximum voltage between conductors of possibly different circuits, see 404.8(B). They didn't do that here.

So I'll stick with the language written.

Cheers, Wayne
 

BarryO

Senior Member
Location
Bend, OR
Occupation
Electrical engineer (retired)
As stated that's your opinion. IMO the reason that they want to keep it at no more than 120 volts with GFCI protection is incase someone hits it with a shovel.
I agree it makes sense that this is the intent, and before this thread that's how I always read the table.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I agree it makes sense that this is the intent, and before this thread that's how I always read the table.
I cannot say for sure but I think that if went back to the history of how the 12" minimum was written into the table in column 4 it would have something to do with a 120 volt limit for safety.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
I cannot say for sure but I think that if went back to the history of how the 12" minimum was written into the table in column 4 it would have something to do with a 120 volt limit for safety.
Looking at the old NECs on nfpa.org, the 1987 NEC doesn't have a table in 300.5, just a list of depths based on wiring method with a long list of exceptions. Exception #4 permitted "residential branch circuits rated 300V or less" and protected at 30A or less to have only 12" of cover. No GFCI requirement.

Then the 1990 NEC is not available on nfpa.org, but the first draft ROP is, and it introduced the current table format. As part of that change the above language became the column heading we have today. Unfortunately, the ROP contains no mention or discussion of this wording change.

So we don't seem to have any record of what was intended by changing the 300V to 120V. All we have to go on are the current wording and the current Article 100 definitions.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I would say that only applies if an MWBC is run. If it's two separate circuits, each with its own neutral, that's two 120V circuits, regardless of the voltage present between the ungrounded conductors of the two different circuits. So I'd say 2 single pole GFCIs without regard to which leg they are on is fine.

If someone says that no the ungrounded conductors need to be at 0V to each other, then after disagreeing I'd say that it would suffice to place the two single pole breakers appropriately at the time of installation; there's no need to worry about someone rearranging breakers in the future.

Lastly, if you do want to use a tandem because someone is worried about future breaker rearrangement, that obviously could be done by using two blank face GFCIs with a normal tandem.

Cheers, Wayne
I could do the two blanks, with a bit of extra work, off a tandem. This may be the best approach to the inspector. I will write him soon with the couple of options (tandem, then 2 blank GFIs, or two GFI breakers with a universal hold down to lock them from being moved into a 240v additive arrangement by a future worker, messing up the intention of 300.5)
Thanks again for all the thoughts and feedback.
-Todd Stevens
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
the intention of 300.5
The intention of 300.5 is that you look at each circuit, determine the voltage of that circuit, and check if it is 120V or less. Comparing voltages across circuits is not in the wording.

You're talking about running two circuits in the same conduit, but with Column 4 you could also just direct bury UF cable. If you put two separate 12/2 cables in a 12"+ deep trench (12" of cover), there's no way that the heading text of Column 4 means you have to ensure those cables have some limited voltage between them, or have some particular separation in the trench, or anything whatsoever to do with each other.

Having two or more circuits in the same conduit is immaterial to determining compliance with Column 4.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
IMO, a multiwire branch circuit is not 240v. A multiwire branch circuit can be considered 2 120V circuits. The table doesn't state the voltage in the conduit. It mention residential branch circuit 120v or less.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
IMO, a multiwire branch circuit is not 240v. A multiwire branch circuit can be considered 2 120V circuits. The table doesn't state the voltage in the conduit. It mention residential branch circuit 120v or less.
Nor does it mention a quantity (limit).
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
I agree it makes sense that this is the intent, and before this thread that's how I always read the table.
I don't see how it matters that much. A 240v circuit is still 120v to ground. If you hit it with a shovel you could get 240v across the shovel, but a person would still likely get a 120v shock. In most failures, it seems like the shock risk is 120v. You would have to touch both ungrounded conductors to get a 240v shock.

Also, is this trench covered yet? Could you cover the conduit with concrete so you can do a normal feeder?

Finally, you can have 2 sources to a building if they have different characteristics. 3 way switching has generally been accepted as a different characteristic. So you could have an always on circuit for the receptacles and a 3 way switched circuit for the lights.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It certainly makes no sense that two 120V circuits on separate breakers should be subject to a different rule here than an MWBC.
And the opposition is saying "It certainly makes no sense that two 120V circuits on separate breakers should be subject to a different rule here than one 120 circuit."
 
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