Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

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infinity

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Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

You can share a neutral on the same phase (and others) as long as you keep the ampacity in mind
Bob,

I've seen this before, is there a code section that specifically permits this type of installation?
 

iwire

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Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by infinity:
I've seen this before, is there a code section that specifically permits this type of installation?
Kind of.

225.7 Lighting Equipment Installed Outdoors.
(A) General. For the supply of lighting equipment installed outdoors, the branch circuits shall comply with Article 210 and 225.7(B) through (D).

(B) Common Neutral. The ampacity of the neutral conductor shall not be less than the maximum net computed load current between the neutral and all ungrounded conductors connected to any one phase of the circuit.
Now what does 225.7(B) really tell us.

Why specifically tell us not to overload the neutral?

I would have thought that goes with out saying. :confused:

What I do not find is a code section that prohibits doing this on any circuit.

The graphic I posted is straight out of the handbook.
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

It would make for an interesting debate with an inspector. I know there's one out there somewhere who simply wouldn't accept it.
 

iwire

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Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by physis:
It would make for an interesting debate with an inspector. I know there's one out there somewhere who simply wouldn't accept it.
Ya think :D
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by physis:
I know there's one out there somewhere who simply wouldn't accept it.
Of course then they would have to turn down the use of SE / SER cable.

Most SE cable has a smaller grounded conductor.
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

First, I was paraprashing art 100. I was trying to be descriptive and tell what a MWB is. Unfortunately, that backfired. :(

A MWBC is a complete entity in itself, however, it is made up of 2 individual circuits. The loads on one circuit are not affected by the loads of the other. One can be turned off with out the other being turned off (unless same yoke, or supplying line to line loads).
Therefore when installing the circuit, you would treat it as one singular item. Yet when it comes to protection, we still treat them individually. You could have a 20A breaker and a 15A breaker protecting 2 different types of loads on that same MWBC, but still they are each their own identity.

Wbalsam1, I don't understand what you are saying with this reply
Also note that NEC 2005 at 240.20(B) requires circuit breakers to open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit both manually and automatically. Handle-ties do NOT cause a common trip.
240.20(B) states that they shall open both manually and automatically, unless otherwise permitted in 240.20(B)(1), individual breakers with or without identified handle ties...
What is your point? Manually means that it needs to work by hand, and automatically means that it needs to work automatically. There is nothing stated about internal, or common trip. A handle tie trips the other breaker if one breaker trips, automatic. If you turn one off, the other will turn off, too, manual.
It doesn't say anything about common trip. Handle ties are there to provide both themanual and automatic.

Also, 210.7 states for multiple circuits on same Yoke (MWBC or not) that a 'means to simultaneously disconnect'. That does not mean internal common trip, either.

I can't find any where that it tells you that you CAN use a 2pole breaker for 2 individual, line to neutral only, circuits. I do see several things that tell me how and where I can use individual breakers, though.
 

iwire

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Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
I can't find any where that it tells you that you CAN use a 2pole breaker for 2 individual, line to neutral only, circuits. I do see several things that tell me how and where I can use individual breakers, though.
You don't need to be told you can use a common trip breaker. All that matters is we are not told we can not.

As a matter of fact you may use one pole of a 2 or 3 pole common trip breaker for a single 120 volt load. :D
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Bob, where do you come up with those drawings?

In your drawing, you do show how something can be wired in regards to the NEC. I believe, I am not going to dig for this one, that you could run all neutrals to one large neutral up to #2 maximum. Yes, you are correct. Just be mindful that the neutral conductor MUST be sized to handle the maximum unbalanced load. Yes, you could have 8 20A circuits, 4 on a phase, and use one neutral back. It just has to be sized enough to handle 80A like you show. Is this practical, probably not.
I did not refer to this because we were talking about 2 20A circuits in this guys basement. Plus, I was also talking in terms of a 'network', that was also my mistake of limiting my discussion.
We generally use 'networks' in day to day installations. A network is a form of a MWBC, but not all MWBC's are networks, like your drawing.
Yes you are correct in your drawing, though.
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

I disagree with the logic. I don't agree with if the NEC doesn't say we can't, then we can. Because everytime I say it doesn't say we CAN do something, then nobody likes that arguement.

Just because it doesn't address it specifically isn't an automatic allowance to do something you want to do.

You can say it doesn't tell me not to.
I can say it doesn't tell me you can.
Which wins?
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

It doesn't say I can use atractive fixtures. Does that mean I can't?

You'll find a lot of cases where the NEC says that something either shall be done or shall not be done.

There a few instances where the NEC says that something shall be permitted. And that's just for extra clarity.

Can you use purple wire? It doesn't say you can.

There must be some logic to it otherwise it would be chaos.
 

roger

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Fl
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Retired Electrician
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Steve,
Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
You can say it doesn't tell me not to.
I can say it doesn't tell me you can.
Which wins?
this is simple, you don't do it, this is fine with me, on the other side of the coin, I will do it, and this is more fine with me. :)


Roger

[ August 05, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

A handle tie trips the other breaker if one breaker trips, automatic.
Steve, I just can't let that statement go by without a challenge. Handle ties are for manual operation only, it takes an internal common trip mechanism for automatic operation of a circuit breaker. Most of the time a double pole circuit breaker without a common trip mechanism will trip both poles but with handle ties only sometimes it doesn't.

If you read some of the statements from CMP-10, you will see this spelled out in either the ROP or ROC. Unfortunately, I don't remember if it was during this cycle or last cycle that we discussed handle ties in depth. :D
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

The bottom line is, the NEC is a permissive code, meaning that if it's not specific in prohibiting something, it is allowed. :)
Steve, I am not trying to beat up on you but Roger, Bob, Todd, and Sam are correct. The above quote is from Roger he has said it as well as any of us. :D
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

I am sorry you guys have such tunnel vision. :D

I know the concept of the whole 'permissive code' thing. You guys keep reminding me of that.

My argument is that whenever we come across something like this, then those that really want to do something a certain way, they will argue that the code doesn't address it and they can do what ever they want. I try to look on it more impartial. I am not the one trying to install these two circuits on a double pole breaker right now. I don't have a need to find a way to do it. I try and look at the whole thing.

Charlie, as I stated previously. The code rule states manually and automatically. Proper handle ties will do the automatic, too. If it does not, it is a manufacturer, or installer problem, not an NEC problem.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
Proper handle ties will do the automatic, too. If it does not, it is a manufacturer, or installer problem, not an NEC problem.
No handle ties no matter how they are installed are not designed to open any poles automatically.

They might or might not, this has to do with the requirement of breakers to be of trip free design.

If handle ties could be trusted to open all poles automatically there would be no need for internal common trip breakers.
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
My argument is that whenever we come across something like this, then those that really want to do something a certain way, they will argue that the code doesn't address it and they can do what ever they want.
And they are correct. :p :roll:

As soon as anyone mentions doing something in a way you do not like you condemn it and try to find an NEC section to support your position.

When there is no section to support your position you try to tell us it is basic electrical theory or that no 'good electricians' would do it that way.

What is the safety issue with using a two pole common trip breaker for line to neutral loads?
 

rattus

Senior Member
Re: Two dedicated 20 AMP Circuits...

I see it this way:

The 2-pole breaker forces one to use opposite legs of a 120/240 service.

The common trip mechanism protects the unwary in the case of a fault.

The handle tie protects the unwary when the breaker is manually opened.

The handle tie does NOT reliably perform the function of the common trip mechanism. Just think about the force required to open a typical breaker.

My two cents.
 
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