Type MC cable

Status
Not open for further replies.

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Well if I were not retired I would take a 100 foot roll and measure it but that is not practical for me to do. I still own a ground loop impedance tester so it wouldn't be hard to do. What I don't have is a roll of the original BX AC cable to compare it to. One of the supply houses I used to do business with might be willing to let me use a roll of cable long enough to test it but I would have to risk exposing myself to Corona 19. Since that is a clotting disease and I, like all persons of Irish decent, have an elevated risk of clotting I think I'll wait until I've been vaccinated. My Brother in law spent a couple of months on a ventilator with that disease. He is now severely disabled and is trying to learn to walk all over again. I think I'll skip that if I can!

--
Tom Horne


I'm sorry about your brother in law! I wish him the best in recovery. Tell him I send him my unconditional support.

Listen, your health comes first. So don't risk it!

Regarding MC cable without a bonding strip I think it needs to be outlawed. Nothing more than another industry hold over from back in the day of grounding and bonding ignorance.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Regarding your ground loop tester- what type of injection current does it use? DC impedance is different from AC impedance.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Regarding your ground loop tester- what type of injection current does it use? DC impedance is different from AC impedance.
The IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer uses the 60 cycle 120 volt AC of the circuit under test. It is specifically made for testing the quality of the grounding path on installed electrical circuits. I would have to make up a couple of metal boxes with the receptacle on on one end of the 100 foot roll and a short cord set on the other end. Stick the AC cable into each of the boxes without removing it from the reel, make up the AC cable connectors tool tight, connect the cable cord and ground pigtail from the box to the conductors and the receptacle to the conductors and ground pigtail from the box at the other using a torque screw driver, the side clamping terminals on the receptacle and a UL listed terminal device at the cord end, run the test. Except for removing the 2 boxes and other parts of the test add ons I'd be done.

Alternatively the Amprobe DGC-1000A Clamp Ground Resistance Tester uses something in the neighborhood of 1000 Hz if I recall correctly. Using it I would only have to put a connector and a grounding bushing on one end and put the injecting coil around the wire and bring it in from the far end until it showed a stable reading. I'd have to deduct the cable that was then beyond the loop before doing the conversion back to 100 foot equivalent.

If I used my old hand crank biddle four pole fall of potential tester configured for a single point test as shown in the manual then my only issue would be keeping a constant enough cranking rate to get a stable reading. If I used the battery operated biddle four pole fall of potential tester that I bought used later it would be a tad more acurate but not by much.

--
Tom Horne
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
The IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer uses the 60 cycle 120 volt AC of the circuit under test. It is specifically made for testing the quality of the grounding path on installed electrical circuits. I would have to make up a couple of metal boxes with the receptacle on on one end of the 100 foot roll and a short cord set on the other end. Stick the AC cable into each of the boxes without removing it from the reel, make up the AC cable connectors tool tight, connect the cable cord and ground pigtail from the box to the conductors and the receptacle to the conductors and ground pigtail from the box at the other using a torque screw driver, the side clamping terminals on the receptacle and a UL listed terminal device at the cord end, run the test. Except for removing the 2 boxes and other parts of the test add ons I'd be done.

Alternatively the Amprobe DGC-1000A Clamp Ground Resistance Tester uses something in the neighborhood of 1000 Hz if I recall correctly. Using it I would only have to put a connector and a grounding bushing on one end and put the injecting coil around the wire and bring it in from the far end until it showed a stable reading. I'd have to deduct the cable that was then beyond the loop before doing the conversion back to 100 foot equivalent.

If I used my old hand crank biddle four pole fall of potential tester configured for a single point test as shown in the manual then my only issue would be keeping a constant enough cranking rate to get a stable reading. If I used the battery operated biddle four pole fall of potential tester that I bought used later it would be a tad more acurate but not by much.

--
Tom Horne



(y)

I like your tenacity :)
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Regarding your ground loop tester- what type of injection current does it use? DC impedance is different from AC impedance.
Funny story about that you might enjoy. I was installing new exit lights in a rather old government building many years ago and I had gotten their early on my first day to get a look at the plans and specifications so as to orient myself to the job. The specifications said very prominently that the exit lights furnished were to be standard Edison medium base screw shell lamp holders and the new arrow and EXIT lenses were to be green. The company owner had more than enough exit fixtures left over from a project which got idled by a financial slump before it was finished. The left over ones did everything but cook your breakfast. They had a built in battery back up with a built in charger. They had adapter plates already provided for those huge octagonal concrete embedded boxes. They had your choice of Red or Green lenses included. They were much nicer than the ones that the US General Services Administration (GSA) had specified. I had done a 2 year block of alternative power work by this point in my life so I was familiar with T rated switches. When I saw that Tungsten rated switches had been specified for the few of the emergency lights that were switch controlled I became concerned. Here comes the job foreman down the hall I was working in so I ask "Ronny has anyone checked what the source of the power to these emergency lights is.” You see I didn't know that the outside superintendent had just chewed him up over a small over order issue and that he was in an extremely bad mood. He answers "Just shut the F up and put em on the wall." The next day he gave me my assignment and I nodded my head. He looks at me and asks "Your not talking to me are you." I shook my head no. "It's about yesterday isn't it?" I shook my head yes. He mutters "Well be that way then. Get to work." Off I went and didn't say a word to him for the rest of the 2 weeks that I worked for him. Months go by. I'm sitting in the ready room of the firehouse I volunteered at. We had a shared border with the city in which the government building was located and it seemed that every fire called in for the boundary street was always announced on either jurisdictions radio channel as "Across the street from ### boundary street. Report of a house on fire..." That meant that the fire department that was announcing that call was not due to respond. The side of the street which was "Across the street from" was always in the other departments jurisdiction. For that reason we monitored the city channel along with the county channel and the channel of the adjacent county continuously. I'm sitting their in the ready room watching some movie; I really did know better. You never get to see the end of the movie at the firehouse; and the city radio opens with “Street Box. REICHEL BOX 1735 the ****** west entrance many phone calls smoke on all floors. reports of multiple exits blocked by fire." Then he reads the assignment and gets the answer responding from each unit. As soon as he's done the radio says "Battalion 2 to radio advise incoming units to exercise extreme caution. Power failure in this area traffic lights are inoperative." One minute later. "Engine ## on scene smoke showing from multiple levels Have the first due special service run multiple electrical leads up the east stairway for smoke ejectors and lights." Five minutes later. "Battalion 2 to radio I'm returning all units except the first 2 engines and first 2 trucks for overhaul. We had a multiple floor electrical fire with several exit lights on fire and dripping burning plastic but the circuits been de-energized by the building's operating engineers and we'll be clearing in about an hour."
I go sit down at a desk with a telephone and call the emergency service call dispatcher at my employers office. He was cranky when he answered and I new I'd woken him up. I said "Pauly how would you like to be a hero. He says “What are you up to now Tom?” I tell him that I am withdrawing 1000 dollars from my bank at that the first 100 guys that answer the emergency call out for 8 hours of overtime get either the overtime or a stake and egg breakfast at Denny’s. I drive into the yard at 5 the next morning. Paul tells me he has 70 guys and more returning the messages he left on their phones all the time. We ended up with 65 electricians and 15 apprentices in the yard checking service trucks and ribbing me about how much they will enjoy my stakes. But the guys who knew me were confident that they will have overtime work that day. They had played poker with me or worked a tough job with me and new I am a fairly serious guy about quality and never taking chances with anyone’s safety. I had stopped a job knowing that the company would find an excuse to lay me off because they wanted guys to work right on the edge of an open deck 7 stories up using step ladders that were 10 feet tall without safety harnesses and edge lines. I had earned a reputation of looking out for the guys I worked with.
6 o'clock and the owners rag top Mercedes Benz car pulls into the front parking lot were only management and their good looking secretaries are allowed to park. A couple of minutes later the dispatchers phone rings. He listens for a while and asks “Will 80 do? Their all back here ready to work.” He hangs up and says “Roll every truck over to the Government ******* Office.” I said “I told you I’d make you a hero.” About 2 in the afternoon Ronny comes walking down the hall I’m working in and says “All right I’m sorry. Now please call it off.” I nodded no and as soon as I did, just like on the other floors he’d been on, all of the guys yelled “Just shut the F up and put em on the wall.”
In really old US government buildings the emergency lights were plain vanilla tungsten bulbs supplied by 120 2 volt wet cells in series and tapped to ground between # 60 and #61. When the power fails a rather large double pole contactor would drop out off of the 120/208 AC and onto the 120/240 volt battery bank. What were the charging circuit transformers in those fancy-schmancy exit lights when that 120 volts of DC hit them? A dead short you say? Imagine my surprise. What had tipped me off was the Tungsten rated switches. I had happened upon them in my alternative power work only a couple of years before. You only need T rated switches when they will have to close DC power onto a number of Tungsten filament incandescent light bulbs. Until Tungsten heats it is a momentary dead short and the switches have to be able to close on the DC inrush current of the cold Tungsten filaments. They have a large T stamped into the strap under the UL letters to indicate that capability.
Nobody had stake but we all got 10 hours of overtime out of it.
What then happened was final proof that the owner was a direct descendant of King Midas. He convinced the GSA they needed to give him the job of building them an Uninterruptible Power Supply for the buildings process controls, using their batteries, so that the equipment would remember were it was in the process and could much more easily restarted without a complete re-setup of the job that had been underway when the power failed. He MADE money off the deal when by all rights he should have taken a financial beating for ignoring the specifications that the US General Services Administration had provided and he had contracted to follow.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Heck of a story.

That exist sign circuit doesn't have OCPDs in it? Sounds like the cable also burned up.
Now that you point that out I wonder why we didn't find any burned out branch circuits, at least not that I heard about. The branch circuits were all in Rigid Metal Conduit embedded in each decks concrete so those were certainly well grounded. That was the reason that I mentioned those very large octagonal boxes that most electricians call deck boxes.

Point is that in that rather ancient government building all of the emergency lighting circuits were in the embedded conduit. The true beauty of the straight battery backup lighting is it's simplicity. It uses the same 208/ 120 single phase panels, feeders, branch circuits and breakers. for both the AC utility power and the DC from the battery bank. When those rather huge relays dropped out onto the battery bank the multiwire feeders and branch circuits function essentially the same as the same circuits supplied by the utility company's AC; indirectly through a 480 primary and 208 secondary 3 phase Y connected transformer. But the feeders supplied by the 208-120 volt secondary of the transformer was distributed by the Main Emergency Lighting supply panel as all single phase circuits. That is what made those panels and the Edison tungsten filament light bulbs they supplied compatible with battery supply. While I have been writing this a guess as to why the breakers didn't trip open came to me. The circuits that our grandfathers pulled into those conduits might have been up-sized to compensate for voltage drop and did not fail in the initial period of the transformers burning up because the transformer frames were not grounded. Those fancy schmancy exit lights were made of plastic. I would think that that would have required a grounding pigtail to the mounting of the charging circuit transformers but I do not recall there being one. So shame on me for not spotting that could not have been right. Talk about your metal part which is likely to become energized those tiny transformer frames would definitely be required to be grounded. I wonder why that wasn't caught at the factory by the UL, ULC, or ETL's follow up inspection service.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top