Ufer ground

[George Stolz]

Re: Ufer ground

Great minds think alike, Bob.

Wait a sec -- JW, Bob and me agreeing on a topic? Is it a full moon?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Ufer ground

It is quite amazing that there can be numerous interpitations to one subject.For years we have used a ufer system.Until 02 cycle was adopted the slab guy stubbed a 20 ft piece of rebar out from under the form boards and left about 1 ft sticking out.We would attach a j weaver or acorn to it and hit our meter
02 cycle comes in and now we leave 10 ft of #4 attached to the rebar at the bottom of the footer.This hits our meter (poco required) and done deal.
Now there has been contraversy what if it has been cut off One side of the county says cad weld or approved crimp sleeve.Other side of county says if enough left sink a ground rod connect and with a seperate. connection run to the meter (poco required)
Same county different rules

 

[derf48]

Re: Ufer ground

The heading of section 250.52 is Grounding Electrodes, and (A) is Electrodes permitted for grounding. #1 is a definition of a metal underground water pipe. If I have more than one in a building, do I need to use both of them? Many times I have seen a building with more than one water source, and they were all metal pipe. #2 is metal frame of the building or structure. If an addition to a building is erected with a metal frame, and this frame is not joined to the metal frame of the original structure, do I have to bond this new metal frame? #3 is a definition of a concrete encased electrode. I will try to write this sentence as it is presented
1. encased by 2" of concrete
2. located within or near the bottom of a concrete footing in direct contact with earth
3. consisting of: 20'of one or more...
or consisting of: 20' of bare CU...
If I have more than one concrete encased electrode, do I need to use all of them? A typically home with a basement and a garage at different levels may have a more than one concrete encased electrodes, do I need to use them all?
I think the wording of 250.50 answers every one of my questions, All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present...shall be bonded together...
If I have 20' of rebar in the bottom of the footing it is a GE.
If I put 20' of CU in the bottom of the footing it is a GE.
If a municipal metal water pipe enters my building it is a GE.
If I install a well and 10' of burried metal pipe is extended into my building it is a GE.
Any and all present must be used! I may not want to use them all, but the language of the code mandates: shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Remember that Article 250 is written at a grade level 20.5 and is almost impossible to read. You must study it, one phrase at a time. Some paragraphs may take over an hour to fully understand! Slow down, and remove the emotion, just because we don't want to do something doesn't mean we will always find something in the code to back our poor judgement.

Fred

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ufer ground

I was lead astray with this change in the ?05 cycle when it was first mentioned about 250.52 as is evidence in my post here

When Jim made this statement I took a different look at the wording in both 250.50 and 250.52 (A)(3).

250.52 (A)(3) gives me a choice to use either rebar or #4 copper. There is no mention of a requirement that both are required or that if both are present they must be bonded together.

250.50 states that those electrodes outlined in .52 (A) (1) through (7) are to be bonded together. It does not tell me that the rebar in (3) must be bonded to the electrode system it only states that if a concrete-encased electrode is present it must be bonded.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Ufer ground

jw,
There are no choices in 250.52(A). That section only defines the types of electrodes. There are two different types of concrete encased electrodes. I find nothing in 250.50 that says that if you have both types of concrete encased electrodes, that you only have to use one of them. All that are "present" are required to be bonded. If both types are present, then both types must be used.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ufer ground

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
jw,
There are no choices in 250.52(A). That section only defines the types of electrodes. There are two different types of concrete encased electrodes. I find nothing in 250.50 that says that if you have both types of concrete encased electrodes, that you only have to use one of them. All that are "present" are required to be bonded. If both types are present, then both types must be used.
Don

I think that you are adding something to 250.50.

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present

It clearly states that the ones that are outlined in (A)(1) through (A)(6). I see nothing here that would lead me to think anything different than if (A)(3) is present it must be bonded.

The question comes form the definition of (A)(3) and this is where we are disagreeing.

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (? in.) in diameter , or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG.

Again I have bolded the ?comma? and word ?or? for you to look at. In my endeavors to gain a BS in Electrical Engineering I have to take some English classes. The classes have taught me that a comma stops one thought and begins another. My dictionary defines the word OR as, ?Used to indicate the second of two alternatives, the first being preceded by either or whether: Your answer is either ingenious or wrong. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.?

Now plain old English tells me that either one of the two items mentioned in 250.52 (A)(3) would fulfill the requirements of the concrete encased electrode and that just because both are present does not in any fashion indicate that both are required to be used.

250.50 only requires that if a concrete encased electrode is present that it is required to be bonded to the electrode system.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Ufer ground

jw,

?Used to indicate the second of two alternatives, the first being preceded by either or whether...

I agree that there are two types of concrete encased electrodes, but that "or" does not give you a choice of which one to use. It is only defining two different types of electrodes. There are both electrodes and if present, they both must be used. All 250.52 is doing is to provide a listing of the various types of grounding electrodes. Nothing in 250.52 changes the requirement in 250.50 to use all electrodes that are present. The "or" in 250.52(A)(3) does not make one of the electrodes go away, if they are both there.
Again, this a case where we will have to agree to disagree. We are both 100% sure that we are correct and no amount of rhetoric will change either of our minds.
Don

[ August 12, 2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ufer ground

I fail to see where you can say,

I agree that there are two types of concrete encased electrodes, but that "or" does not give you a choice of which one to use.

Please tell me just what the word ?OR? means to you.

You keep telling me that there are two electrodes in this footer even when the title of that section is ?(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode.? I can not find a ?S? on the end of Electrode to make it mean more than one.

Yes we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I only see one electrode in (A)(3) and you see many.

Just for the sake of discussion I would always bond the rebar in this situation unless it was on a job of an inspector that I didn?t like and then I would install 20 foot of #4 beside the rebar just to make him dig hard to hold my job up.