uh oh, another SA question

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electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrician
210.52 suddenly has me confused and going around in circles (again). I know we need at least 2 20A circuits to serve the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, and dining room. Here are my conundrums:

1. If I have more than the requisite 2 SA recep circuits, can one of the "extra" ones then feed other outlets such as a range hood? Or as soon as you add just one recep must the circuit feed only receps?

2. What about 15 amp recep circuits in the kitchen in addition to the two requisite 20 A? They must be GFI but can they have both receps and lighting or must each and every recep in a kitchen be supplied by the 20 A SA circuits?

Hope this one ismuch more straight-forward than the under cabinets! Thanks, everyone.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Well here is the physical situation from which these questions stemmed. There is a mini office type nook in a kitchen intended for computer, paperwork, etc. I have fed an outlet and a undercab light just for this nook off a 15A general lighting circuit. Does this need to be 20A SA (ignore the under cab light there!!!!) The kitchen counter has 4 20 A SA circuits. Thanks, really appreciate it everyone.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

1. If I have more than the requisite 2 SA recep circuits, can one of the "extra" ones then feed other outlets such as a range hood? Or as soon as you add just one recep must the circuit feed only receps?
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My unfortunate belief is probably what your concern is.

There will be no way to deliniate the required from the not-required SA's if even one single outlet is supplied that is also required by 210.52(B)

I don't think you'll actually have any trouble with the AHJ. But none the less, you will require his mercey.

2. What about 15 amp recep circuits in the kitchen in addition to the two requisite 20 A? They must be GFI but can they have both receps and lighting or must each and every recep in a kitchen be supplied by the 20 A SA circuits?
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I think this one is easily answered by 210.52(B)(1). It basically says that the 20 amp SA's shall supply "all" the receptacles in the identified areas. Exceptions aside, please. ;)

Edit: Basically, for item 1, if you use an additional SA, it, by code, will be restricted in how it can be used in the same way as the required SA's.

[ May 05, 2005, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Just to Keep It Simple Stupid, I prefer to use 20 amp circuit to supply duplex receptacles.

If you plug a 1500 watt comfort heater into a 15 amp circuit and it runs continuously, that theoretically is a violation because the heater is 12.5 amps and the maximum continuous load for a 15 amp circuit is 12 amps. This invites nuisance tripping of circuit breakers. If the circuit is 20 amps at least there is some headroom for other small loads.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by electrofelon:
Well here is the physical situation from which these questions stemmed. There is a mini office type nook in a kitchen intended for computer, paperwork, etc. I have fed an outlet and a undercab light just for this nook off a 15A general lighting circuit. Does this need to be 20A SA (ignore the under cab light there!!!!) The kitchen counter has 4 20 A SA circuits. Thanks, really appreciate it everyone.
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I see nothing wrong with your isnstallation.


Sam you said
I think this one is easily answered by 210.52(B)(1). It basically says that the 20 amp SA's shall supply "all" the receptacles in the identified areas. Exceptions aside, please.
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the code says
shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),
Click to expand...
Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe so.

And this is a perfect example of an issue that I dug my heels in and would not accept for a long time. :eek:

We all have a hard time admitting a long held belief was incorrect.

[ May 05, 2005, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

"Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?"
I say no.What will they be used for or as ? They are not SA anymore.It says all receptacle on SA and it does not meet the exceptions.As to the desk,that is arguable,would depend on what they call that area.

I was handed a project yesterday to wire a small home for one of our contractors.On the print it shows an area about 10 by 10 and it is called PANTRY/LAUNDRY.It has 2 other duplex outlets besides the one for the washer and a 220 for dryer.How do we wire a mixed room ?I cant hardly put them on the kitchen since it is also laundry.I took easy way out and ran the 2 outlets on own circuit. :confused:

[ May 05, 2005, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Bob,
We all have a hard time admitting a long held belief was incorrect.
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I haven't come around to that point of view yet. I might address this issue with a proposal.
Don
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

I really have a hard time understanding 210.52, it seems to send me around in circles. On one hand it seems to me to say alll receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, etc, must be on the SA circuits which would imply that all receptacles there must not have any other outlets. But on the other hand, looking at 210.52(B)(1):

"....The two or more 20 ampere SA branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C)...."

But 210.52(A) talks about receptacles in bedrooms, living rooms etc :confused:

This nook is definitely in the kitchen, but is about two feet deep with walls on both sides and has a built in desk. I suppose it may come down to a AHJ call.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

This may be something that is required to be defined by the AHJ(both electrical and building). If this room can be defined as something other than kitchen related (ie, buffet, pantry, din rm, dinette, breakfast area...) than I would say yes, wire it like an office. If not, then you would be subject to installing those outlets and circuits as Kitchen wiring.
Unfortunately, SA circuits, U/C lights, and Countertop Recepts are hot topics in this forum right now, and this topic could be debated for another 175 replies. :D
Personally I would wire this room with a separate 20A circuit for the outlets (similar to jimwalker's laundry/pantry) and keep the lighting on a lighting circuit. This way you would be covered either way. (and you would have a nice clean circuit for your computer)
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Only problem in adding the extra circuits in rough to call situations is sometimes it pushes us to being over our 40 circuits and add major cost.In my case no big deal i am only at about 33 circuits but if i was at 40 adding this could be costly
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by iwire:
Originally posted by jwelectric:
Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe so.
Click to expand...
I still don't buy this although I can see how some might.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

"Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?"

If serving the counter top they would be required to be GFCI protected. If so, I ask what the potential hazard would be?

I would not do this myself because in my mind the intent of the NEC is to have counter top receptacles on 20A circuits for obvious reasons.

If the 15A OCPD were operating correctly and GFCI protection was present there wouldn't be a hazard but it could sure make for an inconvenience for the homeowner.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Jim it seems alot of our rough crews can`t or don`t count hr`s when roughing in a home.I get at least 3 calls a week from trim crews (what do I do there are 41 circuits in the panel and the panel is only rated for 40)
First thing they say is we have to retro a sub panel ;)
Great thing about residential no 180/yoke to be concerned with,if there was that requirement with the 2 ft./6 ft./ 12 ft. rules a 4,000 sq ft home would need an extra room to acamodate the panels required to supply the home ;)
What gets me is when a so called qualified person runs a 3 wire home run to supply 2 afci circuits :roll: Same senario make a joint unless breaker is rated for 2 conductors
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

No matter how much I read Article 210 it just never seems that I actually understand it.

I don't know how it can be so elusive.

If it wasn't for that it's supposed to convey a clear idea it would be a neat trick.

Edited, Cause I always have to edit.

[ May 06, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Gentlemen: Siting in on the code panel as NFPA staff liaison and listening to the discussion, I offer the following answer. Once you have satisfied the 6ft wall space and countertop requirements with 2 or more 20A small appliance branch circuits, you can add additional receptacles on a 15A branch circuit for receptacle outlets that you may want to use for floor, table lamps, computer etc. where you may want to also switch them.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for ALL receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)

How do we get past this. :confused:
 
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