uh oh, another SA question

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Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by jimwalker:
(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for ALL receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)

How do we get past this. :cool:
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Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by john m. caloggero:
Gentlemen: Siting in on the code panel as NFPA staff liaison and listening to the discussion...
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It's not polite to eavesdrop. :(

[ May 08, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Bob,ok i see where your going with this.Just never thought of from that angle.Can't say i like the idea.So then i end up with a GP duplex inbetween 2 SA outlets.And the home owner will use it just like they do the SA outlet.If that's not a problem then why even have a SA requirement ?

The way this was exsplained to me by an inspector many years ago was that they did not want someone cooking something(lets say useing a deep fryer full of hot grease)and if it was on same circuit as the lights then we might have a hazard if breaker trips.There we stand at 10 pm lifting fried chicken out of deep fryer and lights go out.Someone could get hurt bad.

I would not try to slip this idea past an inspector.And sure would not want the liability it could bring.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Jim I never said I like it and to admit it is OK means I am eating some serious crow.

I dug my heels in and fought hard against this when it came up here before about a year ago. :eek:

I won't search for it but if you want it's on Mikes servers somewhere.

After looking at it without being stubborn I find that I was wrong. :eek:

Bob
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

That's an interesting view, Jim. If I were to write a proposal for this, I'd consider throwing in a statement to the effect that the circuit supplying lighting in the kitchen area could not be present on the countertop. That makes pretty good sense. Might be a little tricky to write clearly, though. :)
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by iwire:
After looking at it without being stubborn I find that I was wrong. :)

I've been looking through the archives a little, it's sad to see people totally clear their posts when they are corrected. "History of the NEC" caught my attention, and I looked at it. What's left of it's pretty interesting, what's been deleted is pretty telling, too. :D
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Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?
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would you seriously consider going between the SA outlets along a counter top or a wall and fill in with 15 amp circuits? If so why? No where in the code book does it state how many outlets need to be on a circuit, but as quality electricians we can figure that out. If we have a problem in this area the AHJ can help us out. 210-52 states 2 as a min. # of SA circuits. I do 3 as a norm. To add an additional outlet or 2 to those is not a problem. To run a dedicted outlet is also not a problem.
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Re: uh oh, another SA question

I'm sorry Sam.
You quoted someone quoting a code rule that states, with the use of the word 'ALL', that all outlets shall be 20A.
And then you disagreed with him because of the word all.
What part of ALL excludes extra outlets?
or better yet.
Since when did the code rule state that MOST of the outlets, or a HIGH PERCENTAGE of outlets should be 20A?
I'm sorry, but, I don't get where you think you can fill in extra outlets, beyond the required, and think that they are not part of ALL.

[ May 08, 2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: milwaukeesteve ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

The code states that countertop receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 in. measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

If they are installed so that no point is more then 12", or 9", or heck even 3"...doesn't this article that is referenced by 250.52 (B)(1) still cover the receptacles that were added in between the required ones.

I understand that the required ones, since the book is a minimum standard, are the ones 2'/4', but I guess what I am trying to say is that the language provided includes the every other outlet that was added in between the required ones.

And the like for the dinning rooms. :)
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

We ran into this same situation in our jurisdiction. I interpretted the code as follows:
If the 'desk' is a continuation of the kitchen counter, even if it is at a lower elevation, any receptacle above the surface of the 'desk' will have to be GFCI protected, if the receptacle is below the surface of the 'desk' it would not be required to be GFCI protected. In EITHER case the circuit would have to be considered a small appliance circuit, although it could be fed separate of the actual countertop receptacles, or tied in with one of the small appliance circuits, it would still have to be 20amp.
The practice of putting a desk in the kitchen is gaining more and more in popularity with the increase in home computer use. The only problem is, it may not be used for the intended 'computer station' by everyone. Therefore, "expect the best, but prepare for the worst." :eek:
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

By milwaukeesteve:

I'm sorry Sam.
You quoted someone quoting a code rule that states, with the use of the word 'ALL', that all outlets shall be 20A.
And then you disagreed with him because of the word all.
What part of ALL excludes extra outlets?
or better yet.
Since when did the code rule state that MOST of the outlets, or a HIGH PERCENTAGE of outlets should be 20A?
I'm sorry, but, I don't get where you think you can fill in extr
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Steve, I haven't looked at this one in a while. I opted out of the discussion because, frankly, I'm a little bored of sorting out CMP 2 logic.

However, if you can be more specific, (perhaps use the quote function) I'd be glad to clarify whatever I've said.

Edit: for UBB code and error A

[ May 10, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

By electrofelon:

2. What about 15 amp recep circuits in the kitchen in addition to the two requisite 20 A? They must be GFI but can they have both receps and lighting or must each and every recep in a kitchen be supplied by the 20 A SA circuits?
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By me:

I think this one is easily answered by 210.52(B)(1). It basically says that the 20 amp SA's shall supply "all" the receptacles in the identified areas. Exceptions aside, please.
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By JW:

Sam you said

quote:
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I think this one is easily answered by 210.52(B)(1). It basically says that the 20 amp SA's shall supply "all" the receptacles in the identified areas. Exceptions aside, please.
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the code says

quote:
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shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),
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Let me get one started here.
Once I have fulfilled the required spacing with the small appliance receptacles can I not come back and fill in between them with more receptacles on a 15 amp breaker?
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By me:

I guess you're right JW.
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Ok Steve, there you have all of my transactions in this thread.

So if you like, let's get to work. :cool:
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

ERROR ON MY PART

I am sorry Sam, all this time I have been blaming you.
I should have used quotes, and that might have helped.
Here is the quote originally that I had mentioned.
We get past that by first installing ALL the receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

Then we can install additional ones that are not specified by 210.52(B).
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This was by Bob, and not Sam. Again I apologize, Sam.
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

So, it was Bob was it.
large-smiley-051.gif
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Ok ,lets look at it this way.I install extra fill in receptacles on 12-2.Now how does the inspector know if he should violate me for having lights on a SA or let it go because that one was not a required SA outlet.What if my spacing is every 16 inches.HMMM looks like a SA put maybe that one is an extra :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

Not to be mean to inspectors Jim, but that's not my concern.

Edit: He's welcome to watch the installation go in if he's ok with meeting my schedule as I have to do with his.

Nothing personal inspectors. I get along just fine with most of you guys (and a few girls).

[ May 11, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

I would like to further jimwalkers question.
How are inspectors going to know which is which on a countertop or in the dining room (as another thread was recently discussing), or better yet, how is a homeowner supposed to know?
What is to keep the homeowner from plugging a 1800W toaster into a 15A recept?
 
Re: uh oh, another SA question

"What is to keep the homeowner from plugging a 1800W toaster into a 15A recept? "
I think the breaker will let them know.Was this what they had in mind when they wrote this code.I have for 23 years thought we wanted SA outlets only in the kitchen.Now finding out i could have some 15 ampers from a gp
 
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