uh oh, another SA question
- Thread starter electrofelon
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jwelectric
Senior Member
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- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
What do you think?
Well I see no problem with installing a three or four gain box with one duplex on the 20 amp small appliance branch circuit and the other two or three duplexes being on one or more 15 amp general purpose circuit.
What do you think?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
See what I get for not opening the book?
How about (B)(3), Mike? What say ye?
See what I get for not opening the book?
How about (B)(3), Mike? What say ye?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
Originally posted by georgestolz:
See what I get for not opening the book?
How about (B)(3), Mike? What say ye?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
It seems to me as though the gist of the section is stating, receptacles installed to serve a counter in the kitchen shall be supplied by SABC's.
Although I do concede that the language is not strong enough to enforce my opinion.
Congratulations.
[ May 15, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Wouldn't this statement be moot, if any other circuits could supply receptacles on the countertop? "Three" is logically compliant with "not fewer than two."
It seems to me as though the gist of the section is stating, receptacles installed to serve a counter in the kitchen shall be supplied by SABC's.
Although I do concede that the language is not strong enough to enforce my opinion.
Congratulations.
[ May 15, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
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- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
George
Don?t think of this as a competition but rather a debate. In a true debate both sides learn from the experience.
While eating supper I remembered a kitchen and dinning room that I had the pleasure of working on about this time last year. The kitchen and dinning room was about 14 by 24 foot and was separated by a peninsular counter with a over hang and bar stools.
The kitchen had counter on three walls with built in cooking appliances. There were three small appliance circuits that fed the receptacles for these rooms with one circuit on each side and one down the middle. On the back wall were the cook top and a microwave with fan mounted over it. This microwave was plugged in to a duplex receptacle to the right of the cook top and about six inches above the counter. Right beside it was another duplex that was GFCI protected on a 20 amp circuit. The microwave was on the same circuit that fed the overhead lights in the kitchen and dinning room.
If you haven?t figured it out yet I was trouble shooting the Arc Fault circuits in a single wide mobile home. Yes that small microwave was plugged in on the AFCI circuit that fed the center of the trailer.
Don?t know what this has to do with this thread but I thought I would practice my typing and tell it to you.
George
Don?t think of this as a competition but rather a debate. In a true debate both sides learn from the experience.
While eating supper I remembered a kitchen and dinning room that I had the pleasure of working on about this time last year. The kitchen and dinning room was about 14 by 24 foot and was separated by a peninsular counter with a over hang and bar stools.
The kitchen had counter on three walls with built in cooking appliances. There were three small appliance circuits that fed the receptacles for these rooms with one circuit on each side and one down the middle. On the back wall were the cook top and a microwave with fan mounted over it. This microwave was plugged in to a duplex receptacle to the right of the cook top and about six inches above the counter. Right beside it was another duplex that was GFCI protected on a 20 amp circuit. The microwave was on the same circuit that fed the overhead lights in the kitchen and dinning room.
If you haven?t figured it out yet I was trouble shooting the Arc Fault circuits in a single wide mobile home. Yes that small microwave was plugged in on the AFCI circuit that fed the center of the trailer.
Don?t know what this has to do with this thread but I thought I would practice my typing and tell it to you.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: uh oh, another SA question
There it is, if you install receptacles to serve countertops they SHALL BE supplied by sa circuits.
I am back...again. This time I actually read the article thoroughly. I offer this. I see nothing definitive that that?permits you to install general purpose (15 amp) circuits and receptacles in kitchen and dining wall space areas. I see nothing that says you can't either. I think the intent is to have all the receptacles fed from 20 amp small appliance circuits. But of course we know that intent is not the issue here. However as for the counter use receptacles I find clear evidence that you CAN NOT add general purpose (15 amp) circuits and receptacles after you have satisfied the minimum counter use receptacle spacing. 210.52 (B) (3) Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits........
There it is, if you install receptacles to serve countertops they SHALL BE supplied by sa circuits.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
electricmanscott
The code book is written by article, section, exception and subsection. 210.52 provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. .52 (A) gives the General Provisions and has three subsections with (2) having three sub sections of its own
(1) Spacing.
(2) Wall Space (1) Any 2 ft or more in width (2) fixed panels in exterior (3) room dividers or railings
(3) Floor Receptacles.
Part (B) Small Appliances is also broke down on three subsections as follows. (1) Receptacle Outlets Served, (2) No Other Outlets, and (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements
Under (1) Receptacle Outlets Served we find an exception that allows more receptacles to be installed on a general purpose circuit. This is were we are allowed to add more receptacles in the areas outlined in (B) (1) as long as they are on the general purpose circuit.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements only tells us that those receptacle that shall be installed as outlined in (1) Receptacle Outlets Served must be on the two or more small appliance circuits.
Remember that when reading an article we must read it in the order that it is written as in (B) Small Appliances. Notice that in (B) (1) it references three other section of the code. 210.11, 210.52 (A) and 210.52(C) then the exception will apply to all three of these places. Therefore these added receptacles can be added to these same three places 210.11, 210.52 (A) and 210.52 (C) the counter tops.
electricmanscott
The code book is written by article, section, exception and subsection. 210.52 provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. .52 (A) gives the General Provisions and has three subsections with (2) having three sub sections of its own
(1) Spacing.
(2) Wall Space (1) Any 2 ft or more in width (2) fixed panels in exterior (3) room dividers or railings
(3) Floor Receptacles.
Part (B) Small Appliances is also broke down on three subsections as follows. (1) Receptacle Outlets Served, (2) No Other Outlets, and (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements
Under (1) Receptacle Outlets Served we find an exception that allows more receptacles to be installed on a general purpose circuit. This is were we are allowed to add more receptacles in the areas outlined in (B) (1) as long as they are on the general purpose circuit.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements only tells us that those receptacle that shall be installed as outlined in (1) Receptacle Outlets Served must be on the two or more small appliance circuits.
Remember that when reading an article we must read it in the order that it is written as in (B) Small Appliances. Notice that in (B) (1) it references three other section of the code. 210.11, 210.52 (A) and 210.52(C) then the exception will apply to all three of these places. Therefore these added receptacles can be added to these same three places 210.11, 210.52 (A) and 210.52 (C) the counter tops.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
Scott, with the use of the phrase "not fewer than" in (B)(3), it washes out the effectiveness of that code, in the way we're trying to use it. Eliminate "not fewer than" and you and I are right.
As it stands, if there are not fewer than two SABC's feeding the countertop, (B)(3) is not being violated, no matter how many GPBC receptacles you throw on it.
Scott, with the use of the phrase "not fewer than" in (B)(3), it washes out the effectiveness of that code, in the way we're trying to use it. Eliminate "not fewer than" and you and I are right.
As it stands, if there are not fewer than two SABC's feeding the countertop, (B)(3) is not being violated, no matter how many GPBC receptacles you throw on it.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: uh oh, another SA question
210 52 B 1 tells us that 20 amp small appliance branch circuit(s) must supply a receptacle outlets in these areas.What is plugged into them is irrelivent (plugged into being the key word)
Once you hard wire a light into a circuit it has to be part of the general lighting circuit,since 210 52 says it shall serve no other outlet
210 52 B 1 tells us that 20 amp small appliance branch circuit(s) must supply a receptacle outlets in these areas.What is plugged into them is irrelivent (plugged into being the key word)
Once you hard wire a light into a circuit it has to be part of the general lighting circuit,since 210 52 says it shall serve no other outlet
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: uh oh, another SA question
I don't care how you twist it around. "Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits." Crystal clear. You install receptacles to serve kitchen countertop they shall be supplied by at least two sa circuits. It does not say receptacles installed to meet spacing requirements shall be suppllied..... It says receptacles, period. If they serve the countetop they shall be sa circuits.
I don't care how you twist it around. "Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits." Crystal clear. You install receptacles to serve kitchen countertop they shall be supplied by at least two sa circuits. It does not say receptacles installed to meet spacing requirements shall be suppllied..... It says receptacles, period. If they serve the countetop they shall be sa circuits.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
1. It doesn't work to interpret this as "each receptacle installed in a kitchen shall be supplied by two SA circuits." The breaker would trip.
If you follow (B)(1)'s direction, and install the SABC-fed receptacles at the intervals (B)(1) requires (through it's mention of (C)), then (B)(1) is satisfied. We look for approval from (B)(3), it's satisfied too.
It sucks, but the wording "not fewer than" pooches the deal, without a definute "no other circuits shall feed receptacles on the countertop."
Scott, follow my reasoning on this:
1. It doesn't work to interpret this as "each receptacle installed in a kitchen shall be supplied by two SA circuits." The breaker would trip.
If you follow (B)(1)'s direction, and install the SABC-fed receptacles at the intervals (B)(1) requires (through it's mention of (C)), then (B)(1) is satisfied. We look for approval from (B)(3), it's satisfied too.
It sucks, but the wording "not fewer than" pooches the deal, without a definute "no other circuits shall feed receptacles on the countertop."
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: uh oh, another SA question
Thank you Scott.
My thoughts exactly, period.
Thank you Scott.
My thoughts exactly, period.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: uh oh, another SA question
George, I thought you had changed your mind on this one.
Yes it says that the outlets should be suppolied with 'not fewer than' 2 SA circuits. We can go with more circuits for SA outlets if needed.
210.52 does state the minimum requirements for placement receptacles with the 1ft counterspace, and the 2ft/4ft rule.
But now this is where I thought you had changed your mind on: the wording used in (B) is 'covered by' and not 'required by'.
210.52 states the minimum # of SA outlets for a given countertop, but does not limit us to only the minimum, and does not require us to stay at the minimum.
210.52 does state that outlets that ANY outlet installed in a fashion that is 'covered by' (A)and(C), then it does tell us what to do with them.
It doesn't say we could sprinkle gp outlets in between the required ones.
It does say what to do with an outlet if installed in between the required ones, because those 'sprinkled' outlets are in the end still 'covered by'.
George, I thought you had changed your mind on this one.
Yes it says that the outlets should be suppolied with 'not fewer than' 2 SA circuits. We can go with more circuits for SA outlets if needed.
210.52 does state the minimum requirements for placement receptacles with the 1ft counterspace, and the 2ft/4ft rule.
But now this is where I thought you had changed your mind on: the wording used in (B) is 'covered by' and not 'required by'.
210.52 states the minimum # of SA outlets for a given countertop, but does not limit us to only the minimum, and does not require us to stay at the minimum.
210.52 does state that outlets that ANY outlet installed in a fashion that is 'covered by' (A)and(C), then it does tell us what to do with them.
It doesn't say we could sprinkle gp outlets in between the required ones.
It does say what to do with an outlet if installed in between the required ones, because those 'sprinkled' outlets are in the end still 'covered by'.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
If you subtract the room-list from (A) {since (B) is giving us a more precise room-list}, all that is left is the 6/12 requirement, with it's stipulations. There's nothing else of value that's worth (B)'s time to reference to. It has to be referencing (A) to reference the 6/12 requirements, because if you take away the room-list and the 6/12 requirement, you're not referencing anything at all.
Therefore, logically speaking, in this context "covered by" is synonymous with "required by." All that is covered when you delete the room-list from (A) is a series of requirements. There is nothing said about the spaces in between.
Steve, just between you, me, and the wall, as I was writing my prior posts, I kept having to delete portions of my arguments because I was starting to contradict myself mid-stride.
This is just one of those things that you can see both sides on really easy, and I'm not sure which proposal I want to write, yet.
Why can't you use SO cord in place of Romex? It's forbidden.
Why can't you serve two kitchens' countertops with the same SA circuit? It's forbidden.
Why can't you count a floor outlet 20" away from a wall as serving wall space? It's forbidden.
Why can't you sprinkle GP receptacles in between SA receptacles? Who's to say you can't, it's not forbidden.
The NEC is a permissive code. If it doesn't say you can't, you can.
Which time? I've changed my mind a couple of times. One of the perils of an open mind is I'm easily persuaded.
As we look at (B)(1), the first thing we see is a list of the rooms that are affected by (B). Then comes the term "covered by". So, let's look at how this can be interpreted.
If you subtract the room-list from (A) {since (B) is giving us a more precise room-list}, all that is left is the 6/12 requirement, with it's stipulations. There's nothing else of value that's worth (B)'s time to reference to. It has to be referencing (A) to reference the 6/12 requirements, because if you take away the room-list and the 6/12 requirement, you're not referencing anything at all.
Therefore, logically speaking, in this context "covered by" is synonymous with "required by." All that is covered when you delete the room-list from (A) is a series of requirements. There is nothing said about the spaces in between.
Steve, just between you, me, and the wall, as I was writing my prior posts, I kept having to delete portions of my arguments because I was starting to contradict myself mid-stride.
That's the kicker--the outlets covered by (A) are 6' & 12' receptacles installed to meet the wall space code. Anything beyond that may be a general purpose receptacle, but it is easily arguable that the receptacle was not installed to comply with 210.52(A), it was merely whimsy.
This is just one of those things that you can see both sides on really easy, and I'm not sure which proposal I want to write, yet.
The most critical crucial important monumentous stupendous problem with your (and my former) argument is it is not forbidden.
Why can't you use SO cord in place of Romex? It's forbidden.
Why can't you serve two kitchens' countertops with the same SA circuit? It's forbidden.
Why can't you count a floor outlet 20" away from a wall as serving wall space? It's forbidden.
Why can't you sprinkle GP receptacles in between SA receptacles? Who's to say you can't, it's not forbidden.
The NEC is a permissive code. If it doesn't say you can't, you can.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: uh oh, another SA question
"Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits."
Again.. You install receptacles that are going to serve the countertop they shall be supplied by not fewer than two sa circuits. That's he NEC's words not mine. Not some receptacles, not only the receptacles as required in 210.52 blah blah blah. If it is receptacle and it is serving the countertop it shall be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit. I shall not reply to this thread again.
"Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits."
Again.. You install receptacles that are going to serve the countertop they shall be supplied by not fewer than two sa circuits. That's he NEC's words not mine. Not some receptacles, not only the receptacles as required in 210.52 blah blah blah. If it is receptacle and it is serving the countertop it shall be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit. I shall not reply to this thread again.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
Scotty, did you read my post, a post or so ago?
Scotty, did you read my post, a post or so ago?
I think I'll write a proposal for both schools of thought, maybe they'll accept one...Originally posted by georgestolz:
1. It doesn't work to interpret this as "each receptacle installed in a kitchen shall be supplied by two SA circuits." The breaker would trip.
So that means we must consider the group as a whole. Okay, so now the group has to be supplied by not fewer than two SABC's. Once you have done this, you could have receptacles sprinkled in there that are fed from non-SABC's.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
Scott and Steve
What you are missing when reading 210.52 (B) (3) is the receptacles that are being pointed out.
Both of you are only reading part of that section and not the whole thing. Let?s look at the section together and maybe you can show me what I am missing.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
In 210.52 (B) (3) I see that the two small appliance circuits are to feed the receptacles that are outlined in 210.52 (B) (1) and the same is mentioned for the additional small appliance circuits that I plan to install.
Looking at 210.52 (B) (1) I plainly see ?all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),? which states; (C) Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5). This section is where I find the spacing requirements.
I also see that ?as specified in 210.52(B)(1)? also has an exception that allows the installation of general purpose receptacles.
The very section to 210.52 that you say forbids the general purpose receptacles is the one that refers me to the section that has the exception that allows the installation.
Read the whole section and not just part of it.
Scott and Steve
What you are missing when reading 210.52 (B) (3) is the receptacles that are being pointed out.
Both of you are only reading part of that section and not the whole thing. Let?s look at the section together and maybe you can show me what I am missing.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
In 210.52 (B) (3) I see that the two small appliance circuits are to feed the receptacles that are outlined in 210.52 (B) (1) and the same is mentioned for the additional small appliance circuits that I plan to install.
Looking at 210.52 (B) (1) I plainly see ?all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),? which states; (C) Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5). This section is where I find the spacing requirements.
I also see that ?as specified in 210.52(B)(1)? also has an exception that allows the installation of general purpose receptacles.
The very section to 210.52 that you say forbids the general purpose receptacles is the one that refers me to the section that has the exception that allows the installation.
Read the whole section and not just part of it.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: uh oh, another SA question
It doesn't cancel out our general agreement, but if you put a wrong spin on an exception or a section unnecessarily to make a point, it leads to sloppy thinking, IMO.
One issue I take with your portrayal of this exception is that you make it out to be expressly permitting GPBC-fed receptacles for any use, which is not what it says. If it meant "any use", it would say "any use". That exception specifically refers to the exception of 210.70(A)(1), for a specific use.
It doesn't cancel out our general agreement, but if you put a wrong spin on an exception or a section unnecessarily to make a point, it leads to sloppy thinking, IMO.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: uh oh, another SA question
[ May 17, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Why?
[ May 17, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
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