UL & Associated Certifications- is it necessary in this case?

[kwired]

Now that I have a better feel for what it actually is...

Since it is not going inside a wall, I withdraw my objections on those points.

I am inclined to agree with the poster who suggested it is not subject to the NEC since it is not part of the installation.

I still think it is likely to require UL listing as a practical matter if you want to sell it widely. Few stores will sell an unlisted electrical product.

I think in its current incarnation it has several issues that would prevent listing. One is the holes. Generally electrical devices are allowed to have ventilation openings and be listed but there are size limits to the openings. Something you can get a small finger in is too big. I think the general rule is something like 0.17" or so. [Please do not quote that number as authoritative though. It might be a little off].

The other problem I see with listing is that the metal box encloses electrical wiring and thus would require a ground wire.

Personally, if I was going to design something like this and wanted to list it I would use a plastic box of UL recognized material for both flame resistance and insulation characteristics. That would greatly simplify listing. I would also agree with the posters who suggested a class 2 power supply. That greatly simplifies listing as well.

If you decide to try and sell an unlisted product I think you are limiting the potential sales but getting it listed is not cheap either. I also think you will find that getting product liability insurance for an unlisted electrical product is all but impossible.

There are many table/desk lamps with a metal housing that only have a two wire supply cord. The "box" isn't necessarily being used as a junction box it is just a lamp housing. Many table lamps have open or only partially enclosed lamps as well.

To actually get a listing for the entire assembly possibly could require grounding the metal body though, unless maybe it can be designed to meet double insulation requirements.

 

[Jraef]

As I understand it, devices operating behind a Class 2 power supply, meaning it is by definition limited to under 50V and under 100W, are not required to be listed. The power supply ITSELF must be, because it plugs into the 120V power source. But on the load side, in this case 5VDC if using a USB plug, there is insufficient energy to run a high risk of fire or injury. It would be just like your cell phone; the wall wart you plug it into is UL listed, but the phone itself is not, doesn't need to be.

On your old version, the 120V power went right up into your device, which raised the concerns that Bob outlined very well. I hadn't thought of the holes allowing access to little fingers, so that's another thing that would have made that version untenable.

Mind you, none of us are lawyers, so if commercializing this, assuming you have business insurance, I suggest that you run this by your insurance underwriter. If you are not a business with business insurance, you must like living on the edge of disaster, because one fire or injury could cost you all of your net worth in one fell swoop.

 

[petersonra]

There are many table/desk lamps with a metal housing that only have a two wire supply cord. The "box" isn't necessarily being used as a junction box it is just a lamp housing. Many table lamps have open or only partially enclosed lamps as well.

To actually get a listing for the entire assembly possibly could require grounding the metal body though, unless maybe it can be designed to meet double insulation requirements.

My understanding on such things is limited but I seem to recall that there is some kind of UL rule about having a fixed lamp holder to have a 2 wire cord which this is not. But i might be in error on that. But if it changed to a class 2 power supply a lot of these issues just go away.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

seems hopeless..

seems hopeless..

well folks. Seems pretty hopeless.

Thought the box (as it's a junction box) would make a suitable home for a night light. Seems it's felt that even a low voltage LED bulb with wall wart is also dangerous (which I suspect might be a bit harsh assessment), although I will do further research on this. Do you have any other recommendation expect switch to plastic (which I think has its dangers also). Should I have the project looked at by an electrician, take it to intertek, which is right down the road..

Thanks,
Mark

 

[RomanyCaravan]

As I understand it, devices operating behind a Class 2 power supply, meaning it is by definition limited to under 50V and under 100W, are not required to be listed. The power supply ITSELF must be, because it plugs into the 120V power source. But on the load side, in this case 5VDC if using a USB plug, there is insufficient energy to run a high risk of fire or injury. It would be just like your cell phone; the wall wart you plug it into is UL listed, but the phone itself is not, doesn't need to be.

On your old version, the 120V power went right up into your device, which raised the concerns that Bob outlined very well. I hadn't thought of the holes allowing access to little fingers, so that's another thing that would have made that version untenable.

Mind you, none of us are lawyers, so if commercializing this, assuming you have business insurance, I suggest that you run this by your insurance underwriter. If you are not a business with business insurance, you must like living on the edge of disaster, because one fire or injury could cost you all of your net worth in one fell swoop.

Hey Jraef:
DO you have any pictures, sources or links that might show a suitable Class 2 power supply, meaning it is by definition limited to under 50V and under 100W, are not required to be listed. This might me a good way in which to salvage all this.

Thanks Much,
Mark

 

[petersonra]

well folks. Seems pretty hopeless.

Thought the box (as it's a junction box) would make a suitable home for a night light. Seems it's felt that even a low voltage LED bulb with wall wart is also dangerous (which I suspect might be a bit harsh assessment), although I will do further research on this. Do you have any other recommendation expect switch to plastic (which I think has its dangers also). Should I have the project looked at by an electrician, take it to intertek, which is right down the road..

Thanks,
Mark

I think taking it to Intertek is a better option than an electrician. it is not really an electrician type of thing. Intertek might be able to tell you what standard it has to be listed to. then you could buy that standard and see what it takes to meet the requirements there.

What is it that you have against a plastic box? Just curious. That is almost always the safest and most cost effective solution to this kind of thing.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

Now that I have a better feel for what it actually is...

Since it is not going inside a wall, I withdraw my objections on those points.

I am inclined to agree with the poster who suggested it is not subject to the NEC since it is not part of the installation.

I still think it is likely to require UL listing as a practical matter if you want to sell it widely. Few stores will sell an unlisted electrical product.

I think in its current incarnation it has several issues that would prevent listing. One is the holes. Generally electrical devices are allowed to have ventilation openings and be listed but there are size limits to the openings. Something you can get a small finger in is too big. I think the general rule is something like 0.17" or so. [Please do not quote that number as authoritative though. It might be a little off].

The other problem I see with listing is that the metal box encloses electrical wiring and thus would require a ground wire.

Personally, if I was going to design something like this and wanted to list it I would use a plastic box of UL recognized material for both flame resistance and insulation characteristics. That would greatly simplify listing. I would also agree with the posters who suggested a class 2 power supply. That greatly simplifies listing as well.

If you decide to try and sell an unlisted product I think you are limiting the potential sales but getting it listed is not cheap either. I also think you will find that getting product liability insurance for an unlisted electrical product is all but impossible.

Bob:
Not your fault. I think my description was not very strong..

Best,
Mark

 

[petersonra]

one other thing about the metal box. these boxes are intended to be embedded in a wall so they are not well finished and might well mark up people's furniture from sharp edges. maybe not a listing issue but an annoyance to an end user.

 

[kwired]

one other thing about the metal box. these boxes are intended to be embedded in a wall so they are not well finished and might well mark up people's furniture from sharp edges. maybe not a listing issue but an annoyance to an end user.

Used to see a lot of them that were one piece with formed rounded corners, today most if not all are multi-piece welded and have square corners

 

[RomanyCaravan]

I think taking it to Intertek is a better option than an electrician. it is not really an electrician type of thing. Intertek might be able to tell you what standard it has to be listed to. then you could buy that standard and see what it takes to meet the requirements there.

What is it that you have against a plastic box? Just curious. That is almost always the safest and most cost effective solution to this kind of thing.

Bob:
We apply a metal reactive paint to create our finishes. Further, Metal has an industrial feel and Industrial chic repurposed is our target market. If the plastic boxes look similar then we'd consider it but they do not feel substantial (no weight). Many of our industry peers are selling without regard for UL Certs. or doing what is safe. We really don't want to operate that way. I spend great sums patenting our idea before nailing down the electricity component. I cannot give up however. I have kids, a home... I have a real job but this supplements. This forums advice goes a long way in providing a pathway. I appreciate all advice.

Best,
Mark

 

[petersonra]

Used to see a lot of them that were one piece with formed rounded corners, today most if not all are multi-piece welded and have square corners

you can still get the ones designed to be surface mounted that are more rounded and less likely to scratch something up. They are also prettier. I use them sometimes inside control panels.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

Used to see a lot of them that were one piece with formed rounded corners, today most if not all are multi-piece welded and have square corners

Yeah well that is the market. Industrial chic, it's called. We provide nice bumpers to protect furniture. i'm not at all, concerned with cosmetics here.

Best,
Mark

 

[RomanyCaravan]

you can still get the ones designed to be surface mounted that are more rounded and less likely to scratch something up. They are also prettier. I use them sometimes inside control panels.

Great Suggestion! Our issue with the rounded ones is that the 4 bolt holes obscure the imagery we use, and they are more shallow that their squared off counterparts. See our attached example. After we sand, apply prime, apply metal reactive paint, and apply cushioned bumpers on the bottom it has satisfied our beta test group at art fairs. I am really much more concerned with the electrified elements. Low voltage sounds the way to go for us as we need very little light to illuminate the artwork.

Best,
Mark

 

[kwired]

If you power them from a USB cable you don't even need to include the power supply, but can sell those as an accessory.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

If you power them from a USB cable you don't even need to include the power supply, but can sell those as an accessory.

Yep that was my thought as well. However I was told that this might be dangerous. See the pic. attached. I was going to power this low watt LED with USB which customers could power from a wall charger.. Does this make sense?


[FONT=&quot]2.6W 5V 4.9ft/1.5M magnetic/tape Metal base 6LED USB light lamp With switch AB6[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]

Have one to sell? Sell now

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][h=1]2.6W 5V 4.9ft/1.5M magnetic/tape Metal base 6LED USB light lamp With switch AB6[/h][/FONT]

 

[kwired]

What are the dangers you are being told about?

I guess there is potential danger in pretty much everything, you need to weigh the risks in decisions. The voltage and output current of a USB supply is low enough there is little shock hazard, and probably low risk of developing enough heat to be a fire hazard in general, but there can always be the rare case of igniting some highly combustible substance, or maybe something to be concerned about on the supply side of your USB adapter, but that isn't directly your problem - especially if you are not supplying the USB adapter.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

If you power them from a USB cable you don't even need to include the power supply, but can sell those as an accessory.

Was thinking as selling this as an accessory........

 

[petersonra]

I would vote for the LED lamp with USB power supply as being safer by a lot.

 

[RomanyCaravan]

I would vote for the LED lamp with USB power supply as being safer by a lot.

OK I would agree. Is there a need to get it certified? Would you sell the Wall charger as an accessory? Guys remember there are thousands of people selling one off and many selling hundreds of units without much thought on Etsy or Ebay, etc.. Do I need to certify with UL a night light which is low voltage LED connected to a wall charger? I only make the shell. Am I liable and is it the most moral thing to do. Would you do it if the company were yours?

Thanks guys,

Mark

 

[petersonra]

OK I would agree. Is there a need to get it certified? Would you sell the Wall charger as an accessory? Guys remember there are thousands of people selling one off and many selling hundreds of units without much thought on Etsy or Ebay, etc.. Do I need to certify with UL a night light which is low voltage LED connected to a wall charger? I only make the shell. Am I liable and is it the most moral thing to do. Would you do it if the company were yours?

Thanks guys,

Mark

product liability insurance is about 25 cents per $100 retail cost.