UL listing does not mean code compliance?

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marcs11

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We do mostly commercial work lot of kitchens, HVAC units, panel boards, ect. I'm wondering how equipment is able to get a UL listing and NOT be code compliant, regarding any consideration for box fill, wire bending. Most equipment leave little or no room to terminate field wiring. Recently installed a 1200 amp 480/277 CTC cabinet. (I will not name manufacture they all have issues) I brought in (4) 4 inch conduits with (4) 500 MCM AL conductors into the bottom of a 10 inch deep enclosure with the Main circuit Breaker mounted horizontally? I had the REP come out and asked him to bend this wire into the lugs. Only to my frustration fall on deaf ears. How do any of these equipment get a UL listing??

JUST WONDERING
 
The listing is based on which standards it was tested or evaluated to, not NEC compliance.

The NEC may mandate a NRTL listing, but UL is not obligated to test to NEC rules unless the particular standard requires it or the manufacturer pays for it.
 
marcs11 said:
We do mostly commercial work lot of kitchens, HVAC units, panel boards, ect. I'm wondering how equipment is able to get a UL listing and NOT be code compliant, regarding any consideration for box fill, wire bending. Most equipment leave little or no room to terminate field wiring. Recently installed a 1200 amp 480/277 CTC cabinet. (I will not name manufacture they all have issues) I brought in (4) 4 inch conduits with (4) 500 MCM AL conductors into the bottom of a 10 inch deep enclosure with the Main circuit Breaker mounted horizontally? I had the REP come out and asked him to bend this wire into the lugs. Only to my frustration fall on deaf ears. How do any of these equipment get a UL listing??

JUST WONDERING
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CT Cabinets are Certified (Listed) to UL 414 Standard for Meter Sockets.

UL 414 has wire bending requirements that match those found in NEC 312.6 for cabinets.

Make sure that the CT cabinet that you used was rated for the conductors that you installed. Check with the manufacture's installation instructions.

Chris
 
DRGREG said:
Not everything that gets the UL label has been tested by UL. In many cases the manufacturing process and materials have been certified.
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That is incorrect.

If a product bears a UL Mark then that product has been evaluated and tested by UL. If a company places a UL Mark on a product without having UL Test and Certify that product that is a counterfeit product and is illegal.

If a manufacture assembles UL Listed components to make a product, that does not permit the manufacture to place the UL Mark on the product unless the manufacture has UL Evaluate and Certify the product to a specific standard or set of standards.

Some programs such as UL508A Industrial Control Panels are custom built in a shop that participates in the UL 508A program where the shop builds the control panel in accordance with UL 508A using recognized components but UL audits and inspects a certain number of panels before they leave the shop.

NEC Article 409 permits an industrial control panel to be built using Listed Components without the overall industrial control panel being Listed to 508A, but if this is done the installer is NOT PERMITTED to place a UL Mark on the industrial control panel.

Chris
 
jumper said:
The listing is based on which standards it was tested or evaluated to, not NEC compliance.

The NEC may mandate a NRTL listing, but UL is not obligated to test to NEC rules unless the particular standard requires it or the manufacturer pays for it.
Click to expand...

You are correct, the Listing is based on the Product Standard. With that being said the Standards Technical Committees typically do a good job of harmonizing the Standards with the NEC requirements.

Many times new NEC requirements will drive changes to the Product Standards.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
That is incorrect.

If a product bears a UL Mark then that product has been evaluated and tested by UL. If a company places a UL Mark on a product without having UL Test and Certify that product that is a counterfeit product and is illegal.

If a manufacture assembles UL Listed components to make a product, that does not permit the manufacture to place the UL Mark on the product unless the manufacture has UL Evaluate and Certify the product to a specific standard or set of standards.

Some programs such as UL508A Industrial Control Panels are custom built in a shop that participates in the UL 508A program where the shop builds the control panel in accordance with UL 508A using recognized components but UL audits and inspects a certain number of panels before they leave the shop.

NEC Article 409 permits an industrial control panel to be built using Listed Components without the overall industrial control panel being Listed to 508A, but if this is done the installer is NOT PERMITTED to place a UL Mark on the industrial control panel.

Chris
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That is incorrect.
There are manufacturers of custom products of all types that are UL certified manufacturers. Not every product gets tested at UL.
 
DRGREG said:
That is incorrect.
There are manufacturers of custom products of all types that are UL certified manufacturers. Not every product gets tested at UL.
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There are UL Certified Sign Manufactures that are permitted to build custom signs under the UL Certified Sign Program as well as UL Certified industrial control panel shops that manufacture custom UL508A industrial control panels. But both of those programs use a specific Standard or set of Standards that the custom product are built to as well as follow up services that audit and inspect a certain amount of signs and industrial control panels that are built at the facility.

UL can do a field evaluation of custom products and install a field evaluation mark on the product as well.

Chris
 
DRGREG said:
I know of custom lighting manufacturers, custom HVAC manufacturers, custom food service equipment manufacturers, that are certified to label their product. They are monitored, but a lot of different products go out that are never tested.
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The manufactures are permitted to apply a UL Certified (Listed) Mark to a product that has undergone UL's Evaluation and Certification program. The UL Certification Program requires follow up services that include periodic inspections of the factory and random products pulled off the line and checked to verify that they still meet the applicable Standards that the product was Certified to.

Products that have been evaluated and certified by UL are permitted to bear the UL Mark. The UL Mark is specific to the product that has been evaluated. For example a UL Listed LED Surface mounted luminaire would be Certified (Listed) to Product Category IFAM Light-emitting-diode Surface-mounted Luminaires and under the Guide Information for that Category it states;

"The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol together with the word "LISTED," a control number, and the product name "Luminaire."

The Listing Mark for this category requires the use of a holographic label."

The control number is specific to a tested product.

Some products may be evaluated and certified with different configurations or additional features and components that could be added at the factory or in the field but those things would be specified in the Installation Instructions. For example there are UL Certified (Listed) panelboards that have a line side tap kit that can be installed in the field for solar connections.

Chris
 
infinity said:
Ugh kitchen equipment. Look at this beauty:

View attachment 19222
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Yikes... why not just use a 4 gang box welded in (assuming the 1g boxes are welded in) instead of all that FMC? Seems to me to be a major money and timesink to do it the way pictured vs one large box....

As to the OP's question, no idea. Worst I see doing resi work is 4 function bath fans that need 6 12ga conductors into a j-box of maybe 2cu in... maddening to get that amount of wire in such a small space.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Chris, I was told by a ul guy that UL only tests what the client asks them to test. Is that correct?
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Yes, to a certain extent that is true. If a client wants a product Certified to just one Standard when their product could be certified to multiple Standards then UL will only Certify that product to what ever Standard the Client wants.

This does not mean that UL will Certify a product that does not meet a Standard because a client doesn't want to test the product to the full Standard.

For example I could have a client that wants a Solar Panel Certified (Listed) to UL1703 only. UL could also potentially Certify that same Solar Panel to UL 61730 Part 1 and 2 which incorporates IEC requirements for Solar Panels but would not test these to that Standard unless the client wanted it.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
The manufactures are permitted to apply a UL Certified (Listed) Mark to a product that has undergone UL's Evaluation and Certification program. The UL Certification Program requires follow up services that include periodic inspections of the factory and random products pulled off the line and checked to verify that they still meet the applicable Standards that the product was Certified to.

Products that have been evaluated and certified by UL are permitted to bear the UL Mark. The UL Mark is specific to the product that has been evaluated. For example a UL Listed LED Surface mounted luminaire would be Certified (Listed) to Product Category IFAM Light-emitting-diode Surface-mounted Luminaires and under the Guide Information for that Category it states;

"The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol together with the word "LISTED," a control number, and the product name "Luminaire."

The Listing Mark for this category requires the use of a holographic label."

The control number is specific to a tested product.

Some products may be evaluated and certified with different configurations or additional features and components that could be added at the factory or in the field but those things would be specified in the Installation Instructions. For example there are UL Certified (Listed) panelboards that have a line side tap kit that can be installed in the field for solar connections.

Chris
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For the record, it seems like you are just trying to show how knowledgeable you are about UL. I don't see anything that DDGREG has said that contradicts what you are saying except that his first post failed to state that the manufacturer themselves have to be certified. Not every unique product constructed gets tested. That is basically all he was saying. I have dealt many times with custom size NEMA 3R metal enclosures. They have to be listed. The company that builds them doesn't have every one that is a new size or design tested.
 
Strathead said:
For the record, it seems like you are just trying to show how knowledgeable you are about UL. I don't see anything that DDGREG has said that contradicts what you are saying except that his first post failed to state that the manufacturer themselves have to be certified. Not every unique product constructed gets tested. That is basically all he was saying. I have dealt many times with custom size NEMA 3R metal enclosures. They have to be listed. The company that builds them doesn't have every one that is a new size or design tested.
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Well since Raider is now a field engineer for UL..........pretty good bet his knowledge of UL is spot on.

Not to mention he is prolly one of the most code savvy fellas I have ever known.
 
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Strathead said:
For the record, it seems like you are just trying to show how knowledgeable you are about UL. I don't see anything that DDGREG has said that contradicts what you are saying except that his first post failed to state that the manufacturer themselves have to be certified. Not every unique product constructed gets tested. That is basically all he was saying. I have dealt many times with custom size NEMA 3R metal enclosures. They have to be listed. The company that builds them doesn't have every one that is a new size or design tested.
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I am not trying to "Show Off". I am trying to explain how UL Certifies products and probably not doing a great job.

My main point is that UL Certifies (Lists) Products not specifically manufactures.

Some Certified (Listed) Products can vary in size and shape (Such as Enclosures) and still be Certified so long as they are built to the proper UL Standards and are subject to UL's follow up services.

What I wanted to clarify about DRGREG's is that a product that bears a UL Mark must meet the requirements of the UL Certification and follow up services to bear that mark.

Hope this clarifies my stance.

Chris
 
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