- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
I would say no, it doesn't need to be listed, but it is also not a UL listed luminaire either.
Now that said it still may be wrong if the UL listed parts were not used correctly.
Unlisted light fixture
- Thread starter KevinVost
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I would say no, it doesn't need to be listed, but it is also not a UL listed luminaire either.
Now that said it still may be wrong if the UL listed parts were not used correctly.
itsunclebill
Member
- Location
- CO
- Occupation
- 99% Retired Electrical Contractor
I think there's entirely too much emphasis put on "listed" items.
Most metal staples aren't listed and wind up being used for many types of wiring methods. Yet, when driven in too far can damage conductors in NM-B and even AC/MC. And, consequently, since they aren't listed for any specific number of cables appear to be OK for 1-4 cables, round, flat, mixed - whatever.
Plastic staples, on the other hand, all appear to be listed even though the design is such you would need to try to damage cable with them, And specific staples are required for round staples or stacking.
Whether UL listings mean anything or not is a big question in many areas. PVC boxes with no holes are marketed for the purpose of being used as pull boxes and/or J-boxes. You obviously have to drill holes to mount connectors for conduit or cables, but have no info on how many holes, how large, or whether side or bottom holes are acceptable. But, a box that has holes already has it's listing violated because you put in another hole?
I've also run across metal boxes (for a particular brand of floor box, btw) that have the threaded hole for a ground screw tapped with a course thread. If you measure the thickness of the box it's pretty obvious that a 32 TPI or greater is required for 2 full threads. But, the box is UL listed. What did they test - or not?
The thing that fosters my confidence in a UL listing is sitting out in the shop right now. It is a 20 AMP 2 pole breaker that, with an overload that eventually tripped the 100 AMP main with no other load on it, would not only not trip but was unable to be manually operated. It has both a UL label on it and an FPE moniker.
Most metal staples aren't listed and wind up being used for many types of wiring methods. Yet, when driven in too far can damage conductors in NM-B and even AC/MC. And, consequently, since they aren't listed for any specific number of cables appear to be OK for 1-4 cables, round, flat, mixed - whatever.
Plastic staples, on the other hand, all appear to be listed even though the design is such you would need to try to damage cable with them, And specific staples are required for round staples or stacking.
Whether UL listings mean anything or not is a big question in many areas. PVC boxes with no holes are marketed for the purpose of being used as pull boxes and/or J-boxes. You obviously have to drill holes to mount connectors for conduit or cables, but have no info on how many holes, how large, or whether side or bottom holes are acceptable. But, a box that has holes already has it's listing violated because you put in another hole?
I've also run across metal boxes (for a particular brand of floor box, btw) that have the threaded hole for a ground screw tapped with a course thread. If you measure the thickness of the box it's pretty obvious that a 32 TPI or greater is required for 2 full threads. But, the box is UL listed. What did they test - or not?
The thing that fosters my confidence in a UL listing is sitting out in the shop right now. It is a 20 AMP 2 pole breaker that, with an overload that eventually tripped the 100 AMP main with no other load on it, would not only not trip but was unable to be manually operated. It has both a UL label on it and an FPE moniker.
Roger if you were an inspector and you were to inspect a residence where the homeowner built his own luminaires had them installed in every room in his house clothes closets, shower, recessed lights, exterior lights the list is endless how would you as an inspector list them? Would you have the time, testing lab or want to take the responsiblity to list every luminaire?
I agree with you that rebuilding antique fixtures most electrical inspectors could make an evaluation of and approve and probably would. I'd be pretty confident that you did an excellent job.
One thing overlooked is that most people who respond on this forum work in the electrical field and for the most part are very knowlegeable and probably have good wiring skills. But many homeowners haven't got a clue and the NEC is written for everyone and as an inspector you have to inspect for everyone and call it the same for everyone. Let the testing labs list the equipment and the inspectors inspect for code compliance. Inspecting installations and listing equipment go hand in hand but are not the same.
DIYers are not in my scenario.
Back to if an electrician had done it, I would inspect like the inspectors did when I entered the trade, I would ask the electrician how he built the fixtures and what materials he used.
Thanks but, don't you want to ask me some questions of how I did it.:grin:
And I certainly understand you concerns over unqualified people doing electrical work be it building luminaires or installing wiring behind walls.
Roger
I wish that they were not in my scenario but they are and I have to deal with everyone equally. I really enjoy making an inspection when a " good mechanic" installs a code complient job. All code complient jobs make me happy but some more than others. All inspectors as well as installers have to be carefull when installing or approving installations or products.
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Microwatt
Senior Member
- Location
- North Dakota
If the carpenters on all of the "fix-up your home yourself shows" on TLC can build their own fixtures out of spagetti strainers and cheese graters why can't electricians?
I certainly appreciate anyone that wants to utilize their mind rather than UL. Personally, I don't like that people don't say NRTL or equivalent listing. They insist on saying UL and to me it's about the number 1 thing that needs change in the industry.
This UL is a complete self generated industry. They don't "approve" products, but essentially that's what is happening.
1. I'd require any NRTL to be public and/or eliminate any influence from an insurance company.
2. I'd require that using UL or pointing to a UL listing rather than a generic government listing should be disallowed.
If you are an inspector you should be able to tell what fixtures can work or not. Stop just looking for stickers... and for Microwatt, be sure not to ever build a deck. Only your local carpenter can do that properly. Does that sound reasonable to you? Probably not.
I think I prefer that an inspector who knows what is right, identifies what is right and allows what is right.
My apologies for making #1 a rant... </rant>
This UL is a complete self generated industry. They don't "approve" products, but essentially that's what is happening.
1. I'd require any NRTL to be public and/or eliminate any influence from an insurance company.
2. I'd require that using UL or pointing to a UL listing rather than a generic government listing should be disallowed.
If you are an inspector you should be able to tell what fixtures can work or not. Stop just looking for stickers... and for Microwatt, be sure not to ever build a deck. Only your local carpenter can do that properly. Does that sound reasonable to you? Probably not.
I think I prefer that an inspector who knows what is right, identifies what is right and allows what is right.
My apologies for making #1 a rant... </rant>
Microwatt
Senior Member
- Location
- North Dakota
What does that have to do with anything? I've worked with carpenters that can't build a deck and I've worked with electricians that can't wire a light fixture.
Let's say you are an inspector:
#1 Do you have time to go over every fixture to make sure they "can work"?
#2 If the fixture you say "can work" starts a fire and burns a house down, who is responsible?
I agree, I prefer an inspector with those attributes but I think that is too much to ask out of every single one.
NRTL's are there for everyones safety.
1. Depends.
2. The person or company with the most money. That's actually the way it works.
I don't think NRTL's are there for everyone's safety. I would question that. I think they can make money at it. I would say they can massage an entire system of products to their liking, and then only thirdly are they out there for everyone's safety. And before the not for profit words come out, find out first who owns what and whereby they have a profit center.
2. The person or company with the most money. That's actually the way it works.
I don't think NRTL's are there for everyone's safety. I would question that. I think they can make money at it. I would say they can massage an entire system of products to their liking, and then only thirdly are they out there for everyone's safety. And before the not for profit words come out, find out first who owns what and whereby they have a profit center.
LJSMITH1
Senior Member
- Location
- Stratford, CT
Why should NRTL's not be a profit center??
How else could they employ top level talent, or keep labs updated with the latest tools and infrastructure?
UL had testing/listing monopoly for a long time, and they used to be not-for-profit. Now they are a for-profit, private company, just like CSA, ETL, etc.
OSHA doesn't waste its time certifying NRTL's because they could care less about safety. This is serious business, and we all know the amount of money that is involved with litigation, fines, etc. NRTL's are independent test labs that evaluate product to established specifications (ASTM, MIL-SPEC, UL, NEMA, NFPA, etc.). As such, they directly help guarantee the product safety when installed in a proper manner.
Who decides what products need to meet what specifications is done by a consortium of industry advocates, manufacturers, and code agencies. The NRTL's are only involved from a technical side, and not from an enforcement side. The NRTL is a third party evaluator that is removed from the AHJ and the electrical industry as a whole. They list only what has met the specifications.
If a lamp fixture is sold to a customer, the NEC and/or customer require it be listed. What that means is that however the lamp fixture is constructed, it meets all applicable requirements to be listed. These requirements may be insulation tests, mechanical tests, bonding tests, etc. If you make your own lamp fixture and use it for your own purpose, then you are ok. If you make a lamp fixture and sell that lamp fixture to a customer, the AHJ has every right to ask for an NRTL listing. The AHJ may not have the time or proper equipment to address any concerns that they have with regards to the fixture's construction.
How else could they employ top level talent, or keep labs updated with the latest tools and infrastructure?UL had testing/listing monopoly for a long time, and they used to be not-for-profit. Now they are a for-profit, private company, just like CSA, ETL, etc.
OSHA doesn't waste its time certifying NRTL's because they could care less about safety. This is serious business, and we all know the amount of money that is involved with litigation, fines, etc. NRTL's are independent test labs that evaluate product to established specifications (ASTM, MIL-SPEC, UL, NEMA, NFPA, etc.). As such, they directly help guarantee the product safety when installed in a proper manner.
Who decides what products need to meet what specifications is done by a consortium of industry advocates, manufacturers, and code agencies. The NRTL's are only involved from a technical side, and not from an enforcement side. The NRTL is a third party evaluator that is removed from the AHJ and the electrical industry as a whole. They list only what has met the specifications.
If a lamp fixture is sold to a customer, the NEC and/or customer require it be listed. What that means is that however the lamp fixture is constructed, it meets all applicable requirements to be listed. These requirements may be insulation tests, mechanical tests, bonding tests, etc. If you make your own lamp fixture and use it for your own purpose, then you are ok. If you make a lamp fixture and sell that lamp fixture to a customer, the AHJ has every right to ask for an NRTL listing. The AHJ may not have the time or proper equipment to address any concerns that they have with regards to the fixture's construction.
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Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
UL a racket
UL a racket
This topic brings up one of my gripes. I see UL as basically a racket. I have installed a lot of luminaires and other equipment with UL labels that were junk, & I'm sure many of you have too.
I have seen devices that didn't have UL labels that were solid and well built. I think Eagle devices many years ago were not listed, thus weren't sold in many places. But they were well built with good terminations, tight blades, etc.
I don't know 1st hand, but I'm told it costs a fortune to get UL listing for your products. That means to a degree that UL labeling is bought and sold. A little guy with lack of $ cannot hope to even get a UL review.
Last but not least, Zinsco and Federal Pacific carried UL labels. I rest my case.
UL a racket
This topic brings up one of my gripes. I see UL as basically a racket. I have installed a lot of luminaires and other equipment with UL labels that were junk, & I'm sure many of you have too.
I have seen devices that didn't have UL labels that were solid and well built. I think Eagle devices many years ago were not listed, thus weren't sold in many places. But they were well built with good terminations, tight blades, etc.
I don't know 1st hand, but I'm told it costs a fortune to get UL listing for your products. That means to a degree that UL labeling is bought and sold. A little guy with lack of $ cannot hope to even get a UL review.
Last but not least, Zinsco and Federal Pacific carried UL labels. I rest my case.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Junk or unsafe? Two different animals.
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Unlisted light fixture
I know this is an old thread however in revisiting it some thing s popped up which probably deserve attention.
1]What is the difference between UL and NRTL.
ans.-The real answer is of course that UL is an NRTL.
UL is the letter designation for Underwriters Laboratories.
NRTL is the letter designation given by osha to indicate that a particular company is a 'Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory'.
There are a number of "NRTL's" that can provide listings and/or do field testing here in the US besides UL.
However the term UL has become so entrenched in relation to the idea of an item having been tested and approved[and with good reason since they have been the ones there since the start of testing items in an attempt to provide uniform product performance safety standards] it is now virtually a part of the publics everyday language.
UL means it was looked at as far as john q public is concerned--and you can be sure that the rest of the new NRTL's [all of which are for profit ]would love to have the same recognition.
But they don't.And that's just the way it is.
What's important to the rest of us in the world is that we have safe products that we can count on.
What's important to the world is that we do the best to ensure that when my son or your daughter are visiting and sleeping over at a friends house they don't become victims of a fire started at a friends home as the result of a fixture installed by someone who was sure that all his years of experience qualified him to make the decision that it would be ok.
To that guy I would say--I know what can happen and so I watch and question.
And I would say what did you want to tell me?
And I would add that I'd put my work as an electrician up with anyones and what I have learned is that I'm allways learning and what I allways worry about is 'the kids'-the ones who can be affected by any work we do or sign off on.
no face icon for this one because I don't know how to express how important their safety is to me
I know this is an old thread however in revisiting it some thing s popped up which probably deserve attention.
1]What is the difference between UL and NRTL.
ans.-The real answer is of course that UL is an NRTL.
UL is the letter designation for Underwriters Laboratories.
NRTL is the letter designation given by osha to indicate that a particular company is a 'Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory'.
There are a number of "NRTL's" that can provide listings and/or do field testing here in the US besides UL.
However the term UL has become so entrenched in relation to the idea of an item having been tested and approved[and with good reason since they have been the ones there since the start of testing items in an attempt to provide uniform product performance safety standards] it is now virtually a part of the publics everyday language.
UL means it was looked at as far as john q public is concerned--and you can be sure that the rest of the new NRTL's [all of which are for profit ]would love to have the same recognition.
But they don't.And that's just the way it is.
What's important to the rest of us in the world is that we have safe products that we can count on.
What's important to the world is that we do the best to ensure that when my son or your daughter are visiting and sleeping over at a friends house they don't become victims of a fire started at a friends home as the result of a fixture installed by someone who was sure that all his years of experience qualified him to make the decision that it would be ok.
To that guy I would say--I know what can happen and so I watch and question.
And I would say what did you want to tell me?
And I would add that I'd put my work as an electrician up with anyones and what I have learned is that I'm allways learning and what I allways worry about is 'the kids'-the ones who can be affected by any work we do or sign off on.
no face icon for this one because I don't know how to express how important their safety is to me
So, you are saying it would be okay if the fire started with in-wall wiring because this guy had years of experience in wiring homes but made a mistake, after all, I am sure he would have thought he was probably quallified to make some decissions on how he ran the wires with in the walls don't you think?
Roger
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Unlisted light fixture
What I'm saying is only one thing-we all need to do as much as we can,useing every bit of legitimate info,annecdotal info and any other info that we have available to us,and throwing in the reasonable common sense and experience that comes with being an Electrician-that makes us a qualified person-that gives us quite a bit of responsibility.
We want to try to get everyone through a safe nites sleep and have a home to come back to.
Electricians have a lot of responsibility.
But then that is why a person who is an electrician should be proud -because we are
"the cream of the crop"==and I say that with all sincerity.
What I'm saying is only one thing-we all need to do as much as we can,useing every bit of legitimate info,annecdotal info and any other info that we have available to us,and throwing in the reasonable common sense and experience that comes with being an Electrician-that makes us a qualified person-that gives us quite a bit of responsibility.
We want to try to get everyone through a safe nites sleep and have a home to come back to.
Electricians have a lot of responsibility.
But then that is why a person who is an electrician should be proud -because we are
"the cream of the crop"==and I say that with all sincerity.
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Once again
Once again
I've said it before, some may tire of hearing it, but UL is a racket. Granted, a sticker usually means it's at least been looked at for red flag types of hazards, but I've seen lots of light fixtures and other equipment with UL labels that don't even meet NEC regs. Grounds secured with tek screws, metal parts not grounded, ground screws stripping out, wiring boxes too tight for the factory wiring, let alone the feeders we bring in. Also, hot feed to screwshell, fmc with little or no support, fmc with shoddy connectors that come loose with slightest handling, etc.
We have to live with UL; my state requires UL or other lab approval for every electrical item sold, but don't think that's the last word in safety. A lot of junk carries a UL label.
Once again
I've said it before, some may tire of hearing it, but UL is a racket. Granted, a sticker usually means it's at least been looked at for red flag types of hazards, but I've seen lots of light fixtures and other equipment with UL labels that don't even meet NEC regs. Grounds secured with tek screws, metal parts not grounded, ground screws stripping out, wiring boxes too tight for the factory wiring, let alone the feeders we bring in. Also, hot feed to screwshell, fmc with little or no support, fmc with shoddy connectors that come loose with slightest handling, etc.
We have to live with UL; my state requires UL or other lab approval for every electrical item sold, but don't think that's the last word in safety. A lot of junk carries a UL label.
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