There are a few EC's that don't have 2-3 hours to hang around a small job to wait for an
Inspector to show up.
use partition for 12- and 14-gauge NM in the same box?
- Thread starter Umlaut
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There are a few EC's that don't have 2-3 hours to hang around a small job to wait for an
Inspector to show up.
Wow! Thanks for all of the support. I've lurked here a long time, and only just signed-up because I Wanted to ask this question to see if the older dogs could provide any insight. I am happy that you guys have helped me.
Indeed, as electricmanscott mentions, it wouldn't matter if I was mixing gauges on the same circuit; I'd just down-rate the breaker. I don't like to do this unless it's really necessary; it's too easy for someone (like the home owner) to later see the 12/2 in the service panel and "upgrade" the 15A breaker to 20A. And it makes the inspection and maintenance more complicated.
I have a voice mail into the inspector. As augie47 suggests, I'm asking "so I can learn it and make it safe", but I was hoping someone here would think this is a common inspector mistake, and that a certain Article is often misinterpreted ... or that it was a common local exception for some reason. Next week I should hear back, and I'll share the answer I receive.
davedottcom is joking about a future regulation coming back to haunt me, but I was actually confused about the local code; I studied 2005 and 2008 because that's what passed my tests. But the local authority still uses 2005, and I actually thought they used 1996. Is there anything hiding in the 2002 code that I haven't encountered yet which applies? (Or is he not joking? Future code doesn't -- it doesn't come back ... back from the future. D-d-does it?)
The most likely explanation is that the customer misunderstood. There are plastic boxes on the site which share Class2 and comms wiring with power circuits, and maybe someone forgot to insert one of the orange divider cards. But the customer seemed pretty certain that it was this one box--a six gang in the kitchen--which mixes a 14-gague lighting circuit, a 12-gague lighting circuit, and a 12-gague junction point for one of the kitchen appliance circuits. Since the customer said "12 gauge and 14 gauge", it must be this box.
Yeah, if I could go to all the inspections, I would. I'm sure I have the same pressures as you, for billable hours and customer satisfaction, without lots of callbacks. Fortunately, this isn't a callback since I will be working there next week as well. If I think I have something to explain or ask, I certainly go to the inspection. I didn't think I'd have to explain mixing conductor sizes in the same box. Do you think that was naive or presumptuous?
All of the EGCs are tied together from the switches, and all of the incoming grounds are tied together in the box. The box's own ground point is tied with that bundle, too. It's a six gang box, so there's a ton of conductors; all of the connections happen through three or four nuts total, but they're there.
Indeed, as electricmanscott mentions, it wouldn't matter if I was mixing gauges on the same circuit; I'd just down-rate the breaker. I don't like to do this unless it's really necessary; it's too easy for someone (like the home owner) to later see the 12/2 in the service panel and "upgrade" the 15A breaker to 20A. And it makes the inspection and maintenance more complicated.
I have a voice mail into the inspector. As augie47 suggests, I'm asking "so I can learn it and make it safe", but I was hoping someone here would think this is a common inspector mistake, and that a certain Article is often misinterpreted ... or that it was a common local exception for some reason. Next week I should hear back, and I'll share the answer I receive.
davedottcom is joking about a future regulation coming back to haunt me, but I was actually confused about the local code; I studied 2005 and 2008 because that's what passed my tests. But the local authority still uses 2005, and I actually thought they used 1996. Is there anything hiding in the 2002 code that I haven't encountered yet which applies? (Or is he not joking? Future code doesn't -- it doesn't come back ... back from the future. D-d-does it?)
The most likely explanation is that the customer misunderstood. There are plastic boxes on the site which share Class2 and comms wiring with power circuits, and maybe someone forgot to insert one of the orange divider cards. But the customer seemed pretty certain that it was this one box--a six gang in the kitchen--which mixes a 14-gague lighting circuit, a 12-gague lighting circuit, and a 12-gague junction point for one of the kitchen appliance circuits. Since the customer said "12 gauge and 14 gauge", it must be this box.
Yeah, if I could go to all the inspections, I would. I'm sure I have the same pressures as you, for billable hours and customer satisfaction, without lots of callbacks. Fortunately, this isn't a callback since I will be working there next week as well. If I think I have something to explain or ask, I certainly go to the inspection. I didn't think I'd have to explain mixing conductor sizes in the same box. Do you think that was naive or presumptuous?
All of the EGCs are tied together from the switches, and all of the incoming grounds are tied together in the box. The box's own ground point is tied with that bundle, too. It's a six gang box, so there's a ton of conductors; all of the connections happen through three or four nuts total, but they're there.
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Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Why would that matter?
If all the indiviual circuit grounding conductors are grounded properly who or where does it say all grounds in a junction box are to be all tied together?
Pardon me if I missed this one.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Before too many guys get their shorts in a twist, we should see what the inspector actually had to say. The rest of the posts are pure conjecture.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
I am willing to bet it lost something with the owner being in the middle. First start with talking to the inspector. Then go after him if this is what he said. His first mistake is in not writeing the code number or atleast what he objected to. Like it or not you need to be on the job to meet the inspector. I have been paid to sit for hours to be there. Perhaps sweep up the job,clean out the truck,study code book or what ever. On roughs on houses i would save things like tv,phone,make up the panel but try to be there. Often if its something minor and your there to give your word to fix it you will pass. If nothing else leave your name and cell number at the panel. Some guys are not qualified to inspect and some EC should not be licensed to do buisness. You will pass far more inspections by being there to answer questions. A wrong red tag does damage to your name.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree that there is likely a misunderstanding here.
That said people (like yourself) are very quick to ponce on ECs that mess up. Inspectors are not Kings, they should not get special treatment when they make boneheaded moves.
We have a company sticker on the box, since we installed it. And we also have our names on the permit. The company name is on there for sure; I can't remember if I'm listed by name or not. Point is, we weren't called.
As I've mentioned, I agree that the chance for mis-communication is high and that I'm looking for a commonly misunderstood article which might be the real source of the issue.
When I hear back, I'll relay what I'm told.
As I've mentioned, I agree that the chance for mis-communication is high and that I'm looking for a commonly misunderstood article which might be the real source of the issue.
When I hear back, I'll relay what I'm told.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Why would that matter?
If all the indiviual circuit grounding conductors are grounded properly who or where does it say all grounds in a junction box are to be all tied together?
Pardon me if I missed this one.
250.148. I think it was 113 or 114 pre 99
Boy do you know how to kill a party.
No kidding, I guess I should put away the pitch fork and lynching rope.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Hey !!! I resemble that remark
I had the torch lit and ready to burn him at the stakeEBFD6 said:
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
If that is not the "pot calling the kettle black"...
I think that I have taken a fair stance on most topics lately. Maybe in the past I was quick on the trigger.
...and I am not picking on anyone in my post, just giving the benefit of the doubt, especially since a homeowner translated the wording from the inspector.
With that said, I have no idea what makes an inspector speak to the homeowner about the inspection, it is never a good idea, and I was always against this policy, and I still am. That is what the modern era has over the past....phones, communication, industry comraderie, etc...
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
You have to wait until next week to hear back? Or do you just mean sometime this week? I'd have the guy on the phone today if this were my situation, but I don't know how they do things where you are.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
If i get a reject without a tag saying why i would be on the phone. Do your inspectors not have cell phones and inkpens. The guy is doing damage to your name. If i can't get an answer in 24 hours i would making calls to more than just him.
I have 5 gallons of tar getting warm.
I have 5 gallons of tar getting warm.
M. D.
Senior Member
had a cup of cheer
had a cup of cheer
I'm going with two bone heads,.. the inspector , for not contacting you and the H.O. for not caring enough to jot down what the inspector said.
I'd of said three but I have a hard time digging a fellow sparky ,.. dude a six gang ?? Please tell me they made you do it,.. seriously,. Ive been in houses with such large switch banks ,.. that the H.O. had to use labels .
had a cup of cheer
I'm going with two bone heads,.. the inspector , for not contacting you and the H.O. for not caring enough to jot down what the inspector said.I'd of said three but I have a hard time digging a fellow sparky ,.. dude a six gang ?? Please tell me they made you do it,.. seriously,. Ive been in houses with such large switch banks ,.. that the H.O. had to use labels .
The design of the house is really modern. There's lots of windows and not much wall space, so the six gang was hard to avoid.
I got a call back on Monday. The inspector told me that a partition was necessary, and I told him that I had never heard of such a requirement. I asked if he happened to know the code section he was thinking of. He backpedaled, and said that was true only if the 12- and 14-gauge conductors were on the same circuit. I said that would be hard to do, since the partition between the conductor sizes would prevent the conductors from being on the same circuit, and asked if we were thinking about the same thing when we were talking about a "physical partition".
He finally said that it was recommended and not required.
Which is still not the right answer, but at least I can proceed.
I got a call back on Monday. The inspector told me that a partition was necessary, and I told him that I had never heard of such a requirement. I asked if he happened to know the code section he was thinking of. He backpedaled, and said that was true only if the 12- and 14-gauge conductors were on the same circuit. I said that would be hard to do, since the partition between the conductor sizes would prevent the conductors from being on the same circuit, and asked if we were thinking about the same thing when we were talking about a "physical partition".
He finally said that it was recommended and not required.
Which is still not the right answer, but at least I can proceed.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Ok, now can we say the guy is a moron? :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
He's even less qualified than I previously thought. :roll:
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