vanity light boxes

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Cooper Electrical

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hello and Happy New year ....my question is what type of box do you use to oldwork a vainity light . I'm not talking an bar light i'm talking wall sconce . I usually use a plastic single gang old work if the fixture isnt to heavy . I noticed on some fixtures the canapy of the light doest cover all the box , and a round oldwork is even worse just wondering what you guys use ?
 
One of these:

FSC3227R-product.jpg


http://www.aifittings.com/whnew95.htm
 
dcspector said:
Old work cut in boxes are not listed for fixture use unless the substrate is equivalent to 3/8" plywood.
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Au contraire!

Old work cut in boxes are not listed for fixture support unless the substrate is equivalent to 3/8" ply. Most/many vanity lights feature means to support them independent of the box.

FWIW... I just tail out without a box near where I think the fixture might be, and work it out in the end.
 
mdshunk said:
support
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Thank you Marc bad choice of verbiage on my part and that is what I meant to say........not use. Also, the OP mentioned sconce. I took it as meaning a standard dome type wall sconce fixture......no other means of support except for the box and 8/32's
 
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dcspector said:
Old work cut in boxes are not listed for fixture use unless the substrate is equivilant to 3/8" plywood.
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Where are you getting this info. I am sure there is paper work on it somewhere but the pass and seymour site says nothing about that and that it will support fixtures up to 20 pounds.

http://passandseymour.com/pdf/P13.pdf

A wall sconce, depending on it's weight, will exert less pressure on the box than an old work receptacle box. The pressure of plugging in and out of the receptacles has got to be greater than the fixture on an old work box, esp. on the wall.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Where are you getting this info.
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I bet it's a building code issue.

It will not have to do with the boxes rating it will have to do with the sheet rocks ratings.

Yeah the box is rated for 20 pounds, but if you mount it in tissue paper walls it will not have a chance to support anything. :)
 
iwire said:
I bet it's a building code issue.

It will not have to do with the boxes rating it will have to do with the sheet rocks ratings.

Yeah the box is rated for 20 pounds, but if you mount it in tissue paper walls it will not have a chance to support anything. :)
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You are probably right but I see toggle bolts holding flourescent fixtures all the time. Is this illegal also?
 
dcspector said:
Old work cut in boxes are not listed for fixture use unless the substrate is equivilant to 3/8" plywood.
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This statement made me do some research so I called Thomas & Betts who make the union 3080-9 old work box.

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I mentioned Greg's statement about the plywood and the guy laughed. He said I knew you were going to say that.

The best I can understand of the situation is that the box bracket is what is being tested with 3/8 " plywood but that is just to test the strength of the bracket.

I could not get an answer to how much weight the fixture would hold other than the 15lbs that the manufacturer says. It is obvious as Bob has stated that if I used paper the fixture would not stay. So can it be used in sheetrock???? That had not been answered.

I did learn that when a box is rated for 50 lbs they test the box with 4 times the weight as a safety factor. So a 50 lb box is actually tested at 200lbs. This, by no means, does not grant us the right to put any more than the tested 50 lbs on the box. When I asked how long it would have to stay there he said 5 minutes.

So where does that leave us. Probably no closer than before in resolving this issue. Maybe someone else would like to see if they can find more info on the product.

Does anyone know what sheetrock can hold / sq.in. Like I said before toggles hold fixtures up all over the place.
 
Like I said before toggles hold fixtures up all over the place.
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I know of a couple of engineers that don't permit toggle bolts for hanging any light fixture, this is written right in their specs. They require backing material, either wood or metal to attach the light fixtures to. They said that there had been too many instances of toggle bolts ripping through sheetrock that had become wet or damp.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
I know of a couple of engineers that don't permit toggle bolts for hanging any light fixture, this is written right in their specs. They require backing material, either wood or metal to attach the light fixtures to. They said that there had been too many instances of toggle bolts ripping through sheetrock that had become wet or damp.

Chris
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Yeah but that's like saying you need to build your roof out of steel because a tree may fall on it and knock the fixtures out of the sheetrock ceilings.

Sure if it gets wet but......
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I mentioned Greg's statement about the plywood and the guy laughed.
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Dennis......I'll bet your laughin as well. I know the info is out there and I can't find it either, but I know it's there......HELP....Pierre, Marc.....

Dennis good research and good point btw
 
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The info Greg provided is correct, based on the information provided by Carlon and Allied for their plastic and fiberglass cut-ins, respectively. If I get some time I'll do a search for it, it's been discussed in the not-so-distant past. Well, actually, it was probably over a year and a half ago, come to think of it.
 
I think you will find some information on fixture support from the Gypsum manufacturer's association. It seems that the sheetrock manufacturer is the one providing the limitation.
 
mdshunk said:
I think you will find some information on fixture support from the Gypsum manufacturer's association. It seems that the sheetrock manufacturer is the one providing the limitation.
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And it says no light fixtures shall be supported by the sheetrock???? Certainly one could use a smoke detector with these boxes. So why not a lite fixture?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
And it says no light fixtures shall be supported by the sheetrock???? Certainly one could use a smoke detector with these boxes. So why not a lite fixture?
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I don't know what it says, to be honest, but I tend to remember stuff in bits and pieces. I seem to remember something about 6 pounds on 1/2" sheetrock, but I don't know any more. Just thought I'd throw out that Sheetrock lead if someone happened to be Googling.
 
mdshunk said:
I don't know what it says, to be honest, but I tend to remember stuff in bits and pieces. I seem to remember something about 6 pounds on 1/2" sheetrock, but I don't know any more. Just thought I'd throw out that Sheetrock lead if someone happened to be Googling.
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Then the original statement about no lights being hung on this box is inaccurate IMO. I'll buy the 6 lb concept or something similar.
 
Some stuff, take it or leave it:

4.1.8 The attachment surface of any framing or furring member
shall not vary more than 1/8 in. (3 mm) from the plane of
the faces of adjacent framing or furring members. Spacing of
framing or furring members shall be as specified in Table 1.
Framing and furring members shall be as required to meet
design or building code loading requirements. Deflection at
design load of horizontal (ceiling) framing or furring members
supporting gypsum panel products shall be not more than
L/240 of the span. Additional supports shall be provided for
support of fixtures.

4.2.2.2 When thermal insulation installed above ceilings is
supported by the gypsum panel product ceiling membrane,
the weight of the overlaid insulation shall not exceed the maximum
weight shown in Table 2 for the gypsum panel product
type, thickness, number of layers, and framing spacing. Consult
insulation supplier for insulation weight information.

15.1.3 Blocking, headers, or supports shall be provided to
support the tub and other plumbing fixtures and to receive
soap dishes, grab bars, towel racks, and similar items.

From: http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/GA216-04.pdf , which may be the closest thing to manufacturer's instructions for sheetrock.
 
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