Vending machine Gfci: Lawsuit waiting to happen?

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lordofpi said:
Translation: the machines, when they are connected (intransitive verb) -- literally, when the connection to power is made by putting prongs into a receptacle so that the machine can operate -- they shall be connected, i.e. inserted, into a GFCI. I see this as pertaining to when a change is made to an old machine with regard to -- maybe location -- that it must be updated.
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Okay.
If (1) you all understand what I just wrote, or (2) I come back in the morning and understand what I wrote, I will be amazed either way!;) :grin:
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So, if I understand you right, you are saying that the older machines that are PRESENTLY connected are grandfathered, but the older machines that are in the state of BEING connected, would be subject to the change?

Is that what you meant? If not... Then I need more coffee myself, or I'll just go watch cartoons with my grandson. :D
 
Minuteman said:
I can see a article 100 change due over this. What about those little fridges that have soft drinks in them near the check stand? What about a postage stamp machine? ATM? Wow, what a can of worms this will open.
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I am very curious about them little ice cream freezers.One of our jobs is a major ice cream dist that i am finishing in next few days.They have thousands of them out there in Tampa area alone.Since they do not take money are they not a vending machine ?Also whos job would it be to insure gfci protection ?
 
Minuteman said:
Okay.

So, if I understand you right, you are saying that the older machines that are PRESENTLY connected are grandfathered, but the older machines that are in the state of BEING connected, would be subject to the change?
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Essentially yes; I was very tired, but all that seems to have made sense!;) In other words, don't touch it, and it's fine. But move it, put a new plug on it, replace the receptacle feeding it, have it rebuilt... to me anything such as those that would necessitate a disconnection/reconnection from power of the machine, would precipitate an upgrade to GFCI protection.
 
What about arcade games? They dispense "fun" don't they :smile: .
Really, some arcade games dispense teddy bears and other prizes. Would those be covered also? I could see that getting VERY expensive for an arcade.
 
i think putting GFCI protection on anything that the public uses is a good idea and should be required. what about gfci protection for those rides that cost about 50 cents that kids love to use? the cost of putting a gfci receptacle or breaker is a lot less than the value of a human life and if a customer doesnt agree with you i wouldnt do the job
 
electricalperson said:
i think putting GFCI protection on anything that the public uses is a good idea and should be required. the cost of putting a gfci receptacle or breaker is a lot less than the value of a human life and if a customer doesnt agree with you i wouldnt do the job
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I agree 100% . I had mentioned earlier (#4) that I thought any and all electrical equipment that is in public access should be GFCI protected .

Carl
 
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Krim said:
Stand barefoot in a pool of water and insert an uninsulated metalic object into the little slot of the non-GFCI receptacle ... afterwards let us know the results of your little scientific research experiment .
Carl :D
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Well, I tried that and nothing happened. Probably because I don't work anything hot and I consider any experiment work.:grin::D
 
It's not a retroactive code. If you replace a receptacle supplying a vending machine, and it doesn't have a GFCI on the cord, then you must install a GFCI receptacle; just like if you replace a two-wire receptacle without a grounding means in the box, you can replace it with a three-wire GFCI receptacle if you need a three wire receptacle at the location.

Nothing happens until you tamper with the premises wiring system, and then what you touch must meet the NEC, same as always, IMO.
 
OK where does this stand.Seller of ice cream supplies small freezer in a store.They do not come with gfci plug cords.They plug it into stores receptacle that is not gfci protected.Has the code been violated ? If so by who
 
dlhoule said:
Well, I tried that and nothing happened. Probably because I don't work anything hot and I consider any experiment work.:grin::D
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Well there are times when you have to work on live (hot) equipment and that's why we have PPE .
I find experimenting with things to be fun, educational, & sometimes even entertaining ... I certainly don't view it as work...( Although I would like to get paid for having fun & sometimes do ).

Carl :grin:
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
OK where does this stand.Seller of ice cream supplies small freezer in a store.They do not come with gfci plug cords.They plug it into stores receptacle that is not gfci protected.Has the code been violated ? If so by who
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its kind of hard to answer since i dont know the laws behind existing installations. but if someone is hurt on it i think they would look at where it was plugged in and check to see if any electrical codes were violated at the time when the building was wired. but im probably wrong on this
 
georgestolz said:
It's not a retroactive code. If you replace a receptacle supplying a vending machine, and it doesn't have a GFCI on the cord, then you must install a GFCI receptacle; just like if you replace a two-wire receptacle without a grounding means in the box, you can replace it with a three-wire GFCI receptacle if you need a three wire receptacle at the location.

Nothing happens until you tamper with the premises wiring system, and then what you touch must meet the NEC, same as always, IMO.
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I would like to think (and HOPE/PRAY) that would be how they enforce/interpet that rule. But here i go again being argumentive The language of that article is very clear. Also we have to look at the 'context' of the whole article, This is actually DIRECTED to the customer/owner/maufacturer and a product/(vending machines) and NOT the electrician or installer of the receptacle.

2008 NEC said:
422.51 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Vending Machines. Cord-and-Plug-Connected Vending Machines manufactured or re-manufactured on or after January 1, 2005, shall include a ground-fault circuit interrupter as an intergral part of the attachement plug. Older vending machines manufactured or remanufactured prior to Jan 1, 2005, shall be connected to a gfci protected outlet......
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They (NEC) basically want ALL vending machines both existing(old) and new to be gfci protected. So old machines that plug in without any gfci protection is NOT grandfathered in (says the debater) ;)

georgestolz said:
It's not a retroactive code. If you replace a receptacle supplying a vending machine, and it doesn't have a GFCI on the cord, then you must install a GFCI receptacle
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Again I dare say that you actually are NOT required to change or alter the outlet receptacle. However you are REQUIRED to plug the vending machine in a gfci protected outlet. So you can relocate the machine or buy a new one. So this article really is not DIRECTED TO the premises wiring but is directed to the machine.

The case/arguement can be made that the NEC does have that authority, seeing how they try to do that in other articles (like parts of 210) and of course my favorite the 'infamous' AFCI (must be of the combination type). Some of which is directed at the owner/manufacturer in a futile(IMO) attempt to controling the wiring past the wall. They (NEC) do have some leverage on the manufacturer but we are limited in our ability to control what people decide to plug into a receptacle. Ok im done being the arguementive lol love to hear others.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
OK where does this stand.Seller of ice cream supplies small freezer in a store.They do not come with gfci plug cords.They plug it into stores receptacle that is not gfci protected.Has the code been violated ? If so by who
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Well heres the definition of a vending machine again
NEC said:
For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or mechandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

FPN: For futher information ,see ANSI/UL 541-2005, Standard for Refrigerated Vending Machines, or ANSI/UL 751-2005, Standard for Vending Machines.
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I suppose someone could say the freezer is not actually 'dispensing' but the customer is 'grabbing'. It just depends on your definition of 'dispensing'. lol But if the freezer is considered to 'dispense' and you are getting it yourself (self service) and then you pay at the counter (receipt of payment by other means) then i would say , YES it is a vending machine by definition and needs to be gfci protected. Oh what a can worms that would be.
 
brother said:
Well heres the definition of a vending machine again


I suppose someone could say the freezer is not actually 'dispensing' but the customer is 'grabbing'. It just depends on your definition of 'dispensing'. lol But if the freezer is considered to 'dispense' and you are getting it yourself (self service) and then you pay at the counter (receipt of payment by other means) then i would say , YES it is a vending machine by definition and needs to be gfci protected. Oh what a can worms that would be.
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I agree that it looks like a vending machine but then so is every box large or small that is holding cold or frozen food,or for that matter even hot food.This is in every convienance store,super market,sams club or whatever.Customer is who they are trying to protect and not the money
 
Again, just to clarify, this is NOT retroactive. If it were, it would specifically say so. New laws are passed every day. Unless they specifically say "this is retroactive to xx/xx/xxxx" then it is not retroactive. This applies to new installations only. The ONLY reason for giving a date on this code is because machines made after the date were required to have the gfci built into the vending machine, and thus would not require a gfci receptacle.
 
Jim, I think Brother pretty much nixed the freezer being called a vending machine - the last time I saw a freezer spit out a carton of ice cream was probably in a cartoon.

Brother said:
The case/arguement can be made that the NEC does have that authority...
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I agree with that train of thought - the NEC loses a lot of ground when they start writing unenforceable "use" requirements in addition to the enforceable "installation" requirements. :mad:
 
Main Entry: dis?pense
Function: verb
Pronunciation: di-'spen(t)s
Inflected Form(s): dis?pensed ; dis?pens?ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin dispensare to exempt, from Latin, to distribute, from dis- + pensare to weigh, frequentative of pendere to weigh, pay out -- more at SPIN
transitive senses
1 a : to deal out in portions b : ADMINISTER <dispense justice>
2 : to give dispensation to : EXEMPT
3 : to prepare and distribute (medication)
intransitive senses archaic : to grant dispensation
synonym see DISTRIBUTE
- dispense with 1 : to set aside : DISCARD <dispensing with the usual introduction> 2 : to do without <could dispense with such a large staff>
 
Look at the UL tag on the equipment.

If it is a "Vending Machine" it will say so on the UL tag, if it is not a vending machine the tag will not say vending machine.

No need to make things harder then they are. :)
 
iwire said:
Look at the UL tag on the equipment.

If it is a "Vending Machine" it will say so on the UL tag, if it is not a vending machine the tag will not say vending machine.

No need to make things harder then they are. :)
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I believe since the NEC went thru the trouble of 'defining' VENDING MACHINE, I believe one would have to follow that definition whether it has a 'tag' stating its a vending machine or not to avoid any violation of 2008 Code.
 
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