Very basic question, first solar job

[Mr. Serious]

A man in a neighboring state called me the other day and asked if I do solar installs, I said, "Yes, I'd like to get into that." And he said, "but you haven't ever done one?" And I said, "no, I haven't ever done one yet," and he said "bye."

He called back again today, and asked if I do solar installs, and I said, "Yes, we can do that." He has about 30 jobs in my area and he sent me prints for one of them. The name of his company is "Sun Valley." So, I'm going through the prints, everything is specified, size of feeders, brands of materials, etc. I'm not sure about what product to use to seal the roof penetrations for mounting the brackets, but maybe it even says somewhere in the documents. When I worked for a very small wireless Internet company, we always used this stuff we called "tar tape," but really it's sold at auto parts stores as "air conditioning insulation tape."

So, the most basic question: am I expected to provide all the solar panels, brackets, inverters, and everything? Or do they provide a lot of the materials and I just provide labor and basic materials? I think there may be some standard way that most companies like this operate, but I don't know what it is. The prints he sent were for a 22.5 kW system. What's the going rate for all the hardware required, $3/watt? If I have to provide everything, I'll need to get a loan. It looks like they want me to provide everything, but it's not totally clear.

 

[texie]

Scam, scam, scam. You are a licensed contractor and you can't see this?

 

[Another C10]

If I have to provide everything, I'll need to get a loan. It looks like they want me to provide everything, but it's not totally clear.

The upside of that opportunity is thats alot of work, the down side to me would be your eliminating your availability to many other potential clients which too all can lead to years of profitable service.

I would do an internet background check on the company and make sure they on the up and up, make sure they have an actual place of business, see if they have poor reviews or complaints.

I would not borrow money to fund a job, I use to and it was a costly mistake, Ask for a deposit, that way they are legally obligated to the arrangement and any court would see the transaction as an agreement of conditions, besides they'd be less inclined to leave town come payday.

Try to include materials if possible on your bid, Materials are a legitimate way to make money and the design will be based on supplies your familiar with.

 

[jaggedben]

Could be a scam like Texie says, but if he says he has 30 jobs and plans, and he called you back because he couldn't find anyone with experience, it seems like it could be a legitimate business, but a desperate one. That is to say they probably do not have a good business plan or the financial stability to pay you for all the work. It's not a good look that they didn't clearly state their terms and you are asking here what is normal. There is no normal. I've seen a lot of different business models in the solar industry.

That said, from my experience, not knowing otherwise, I would NOT expect you'd have to supply solar panels, inverters, racking, mounts, or other specialized solar hardware. I'd expect that to be drop-shipped to you or to the jobsite. Or rather, I expect they'd promise that, but not necessarily send you everything you need. ;-) I would expect that you would supply wire, conduit, fittings, and other ordinarly electrical stuff that would be stocked at your local supply-house or big box where you already buy that stuff. I would also expect there to be adders for paying you more if, say, the conduit is long.

Be wary that even if this is 100% legit it is probably NOT a good money making opportunity for you in itself. I've seen a lot of subcontracting models fail for everyone involved. The only reason to do it would be to learn, and definitely don't committ to doing all 30 jobs in order to do the first one.

 

[Mr. Serious]

Points all taken, thank you.

If I proceed, I should ask them to provide all the specialized solar hardware (and signs/labels). My wife already suggested letting them know if they provide it, they'll get a better deal, because I would add markup.

And then I should also ask them to pre-pay a substantial portion of the job cost, rather than taking out a loan to cover it.

But before anything, I should do some background research on the company.

 

[Fred B]

Be careful of these unsolicited calls. Especially if you already indicated you had no experience in the particular instalation. Had one that would call back several times. When pressed on specific job locations they just hang up (red flag). They also wanted specific company info including checking account info claiming they only pay by direct deposit (red flag).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why, if you never have done a solar install would you do 30 of them. That is a bad idea imo. Also working for people that are out of town like you are doing can be a real problem--like collecting money.

 

[ggunn]

Could be a scam like Texie says, but if he says he has 30 jobs and plans, and he called you back because he couldn't find anyone with experience, it seems like it could be a legitimate business, but a desperate one. That is to say they probably do not have a good business plan or the financial stability to pay you for all the work. It's not a good look that they didn't clearly state their terms and you are asking here what is normal. There is no normal. I've seen a lot of different business models in the solar industry.

That said, from my experience, not knowing otherwise, I would NOT expect you'd have to supply solar panels, inverters, racking, mounts, or other specialized solar hardware. I'd expect that to be drop-shipped to you or to the jobsite. Or rather, I expect they'd promise that, but not necessarily send you everything you need. ;-) I would expect that you would supply wire, conduit, fittings, and other ordinarly electrical stuff that would be stocked at your local supply-house or big box where you already buy that stuff. I would also expect there to be adders for paying you more if, say, the conduit is long.

Be wary that even if this is 100% legit it is probably NOT a good money making opportunity for you in itself. I've seen a lot of subcontracting models fail for everyone involved. The only reason to do it would be to learn, and definitely don't committ to doing all 30 jobs in order to do the first one.

I read that as he couldn't find anyone with experience who would accept his deal; that should give you pause. If all the experienced solar integrators he contacted, i.e., people who know what they are doing, have turned him down, then IMO the probability of it being a good business decision for you as a neophyte in PV systems to throw in with him is low, especially if he wants to get you on the hook up front for 30 systems.

Designing and installing PV systems isn't rocket science, but there is a lot of specialized knowledge involved; get some training before you commit yourself to building any systems. Don't depend on just figuring it out as you go; that can very easily turn into a nightmare scenario. I have seen that happen more than once.

 

[Mr. Serious]

Just to make it clear, in no way did I commit to doing all 30 of them, or even suggest that. If that ends up being a requirement for getting the job, I will definitely not do this.

 

[ggunn]

Just to make it clear, in no way did I commit to doing all 30 of them, or even suggest that. If that ends up being a requirement for getting the job, I will definitely not do this.

Be that as it may, the deal smells funny to me. I have been in the solar industry for 14 years; I have seen a lot of scammers and "fake it till you make it" types, and this sounds a lot like them. Does this guy's proposal delineate who takes responsibility if your installation causes roof leaks or (gods forbid) a fire? I'm betting it's you, and if you don't know what you are doing, well...

If you want to get into PV, my advice is to get some training from a reputable NABCEP accredited trainer like ImaginSolar or SEI before you make any moves, and then hire installers with PV experience to do the work.

 

[petersonra]

Scam, scam, scam. You are a licensed contractor and you can't see this?

why would anyone drop this much work into the lap of someone who has no experience with it?

 

[jaggedben]

why would anyone drop this much work into the lap of someone who has no experience with it?

Maybe incompetence in preparing the installation logistics to make good on your sales? I've seen it happen with a number of solar companies.

 

[ggunn]

why would anyone drop this much work into the lap of someone who has no experience with it?

It sounds to me like the reason they are offering the deal to someone with no PV experience is that experienced contractors have turned them down, and that speaks volumes.

 

[Mr. Serious]

So, the prints look to be very well put together, upon first inspection. But of course, with all the comments here, I'll definitely do my research.

I am smart enough to figure this out, even though I haven't done it before. I have a BA in Physics and a MSEE. I have experience installing things on roof tops. Nine years ago, I was planning to pursue NABCEP certification, but at the time, my wife argued very hard against it, because she is risk averse, and she thought there was a good possibility there was a scam. I argued for days, but I tend to go with what other people say if they argue hard enough. So I ended the argument with me saying that I was 90% to 95% sure that NABCEP certification is not a scam, but as I was unable to easily find proof of that, based on my perceived 5% to 10% probability that it was a scam, I would accede to her wishes, and not pay for the classes and pursue certification. More recently, I have come across job listings specifically asking for NABCEP certification, so I now know it's not a scam, but I don't have the time right now to pursue it.

I would still like to learn to do solar power installations. But I understand: even if the prints are perfect and the system expertly engineered, maybe the company is under-paying, and that's why they can't get anyone to do the jobs. And it would behoove me to pursue some other route to getting into solar power.

 

[Another C10]

and then hire installers with PV experience to do the work.

I certainly wouldn't do any work involving roof tiles or some sort of railing system, Unless I could simply show up and set the array and wire everything as necessary, I'd pass. The last thing Mr Serious needs is a water damage claim.

 

[jaggedben]

NABCEP may or may not be worth it but it is certainly no less than it purports to be: continuing education that you can put on your resume or marketing materials. It will probably not give you the necessary experience to install a rooftop system that won't leak. For that, hire an experienced roofer to be part of your crew.

 

[ggunn]

So, the prints look to be very well put together, upon first inspection. But of course, with all the comments here, I'll definitely do my research.

I am smart enough to figure this out, even though I haven't done it before. I have a BA in Physics and a MSEE. I have experience installing things on roof tops. Nine years ago, I was planning to pursue NABCEP certification, but at the time, my wife argued very hard against it, because she is risk averse, and she thought there was a good possibility there was a scam. I argued for days, but I tend to go with what other people say if they argue hard enough. So I ended the argument with me saying that I was 90% to 95% sure that NABCEP certification is not a scam, but as I was unable to easily find proof of that, based on my perceived 5% to 10% probability that it was a scam, I would accede to her wishes, and not pay for the classes and pursue certification. More recently, I have come across job listings specifically asking for NABCEP certification, so I now know it's not a scam, but I don't have the time right now to pursue it.

I would still like to learn to do solar power installations. But I understand: even if the prints are perfect and the system expertly engineered, maybe the company is under-paying, and that's why they can't get anyone to do the jobs. And it would behoove me to pursue some other route to getting into solar power.

FWIW, I have been NABCEP professionally certified since 2009. It isn't a scam and some AHJs require that solar companies doing business within their jurisdiction employ a NABCEP certified PV designer and/or installation crew chief. There are at least 20 people in the company I work for who have a NABCEP certificate. A NABCEP cert may or may not open doors for you, but no one gets one without knowing a lot about solar.

 

[Zee]

Tons of companies out there trying to just sell PV, then turn around and get the cheapest install cost from a contractor.
It's not worth it - if you are an established solar contractor.
HOWEVER as a newcomer, which you are in solar, it can be an opportunity. You cover your costs while learning the trade.
I would not start with a contract for several jobs though, but one at a time. DO NOT OVER COMMIT.

My main concern is, however, your willingness to take on these jobs given the lack of solar installation experience and knowledge you exhibited with your questions.
I spent many years doing solar before I took on my own solar jobs.
Why not at least hire a pro to work with so you can learn how to do it right? There are a million details that cannot be answered here.

 

[Mr. Serious]

So, the company asked for a bid for all 30 jobs, and we told them we can't do that at this time. They said they had crews they could send over from Arkansas to do the jobs, so we suggested we do one or two jobs with their crew, charge for materials used and for our time at a discounted rate, and once we know what is involved and a little more about how to do it, then we can give a bid for more of the jobs.

 

[petersonra]

So, the company asked for a bid for all 30 jobs, and we told them we can't do that at this time. They said they had crews they could send over from Arkansas to do the jobs, so we suggested we do one or two jobs with their crew, charge for materials used and for our time at a discounted rate, and once we know what is involved and a little more about how to do it, then we can give a bid for more of the jobs.

If they have crews they can send, why do they need you?