Very basic question, first solar job

[Phil Timmons]

If they have crews they can send, why do they need you?

Lot of time, travelers like to use their own roof crew, and then have local electricians handle the Service / Electrical hook-up.

Especially if there is a Main Panel upgrade or some funky Utility or local code requirements.

 

[Amps]

If you are supplying and installing all the materials, what about warranty? Who picks that up? I never heard of an electrical contractor doing the complete mechanical installation of an entire solar job. Around here all the solar equipment is installed by the solar company, and the electrical contractor takes it from the invertor(s) to the disconnect(s), meter, etc. Forget that roof stuff! Make sure that your insurance company is made aware of your new venture as well.

 

[ggunn]

If you are supplying and installing all the materials, what about warranty? Who picks that up? I never heard of an electrical contractor doing the complete mechanical installation of an entire solar job. Around here all the solar equipment is installed by the solar company, and the electrical contractor takes it from the invertor(s) to the disconnect(s), meter, etc. Forget that roof stuff! Make sure that your insurance company is made aware of your new venture as well.

That has been a concern of mine from the beginning; it seems to me that the offer is coming from someone who wants to harvest a chunk of the profit while assuming none of the liability. There must be a reason why experienced PV professionals are not interested in playing his game.

Of course there are wheels within wheels in this proposal about which I know nothing, but from where I sit it just smells funny.

 

[Amps]

That has been a concern of mine from the beginning; it seems to me that the offer is coming from someone who wants to harvest a chunk of the profit while assuming none of the liability. There must be a reason why experienced PV professionals are not interested in playing his game.

Of course there are wheels within wheels in this proposal about which I know nothing, but from where I sit it just smells funny.

Sometimes walking away is the best thing. If it creates anxiety and doubts, maybe it's too risky. Last year I got an offer to bid an apartment renovation a 1/2 mile from me in my local town. The initial excitement had me hooked for a day. Then I met the out of town owner that just purchased the building, who immediately came off as a big shot, told me all the properties he owned and how I could have as much service work as I wanted. All over an hour away. I wondered who was doing it now? The apartment renovation was an old building and would have taken a year of my time if not longer. The plans were vague. I figured getting paid would involve me driving hours to his office. My gut told me something was up. I declined it and got a rude email reply. Later I learned he was just looking for a local guy who got along with the local inspectors. The job is barely moving along today. And during this past year I made many new customers. Trust your intuition.

 

[Eli1211]

They need him because none of their guys are licensed in his state. I had a similar situation happen to me earlier this year. However, I was contacted by a solar gc in my own state with a fair reputation. They needed me because their work load exceeded their manpower by far. I knew very little about solar at the time. My company now has over 50 resi solar projects completed to date. We have built a good relationship with this gc and they have so much work I started giving projects to a good friend of mine who is an EC as well. The solar company I do work for they mount the panels on the roof, drop a line or several into the attic and my company takes it from there. All T&M, it is a great relationship to have. I would not have moved forward initially if they expected me to put the panels on the roof. Maybe, see if that is something they can take care of. I would move forward cautiously, taking heed to everything everyone is saying here. Good call not giving a bid for all 30. Because I can tell you no one of these is the same. I’ve charged as little as $2500 to $9000, project cost for these varies greatly. Good luck to you sir!

 

[SolarJax]

One of my installers was taken by someone doing this exact thing. he lost tens of thousands of dollars! Anyone contracting you for install should have a list of equipment provided, in writing, before you sign anything. You shouldn't pay for anything up front, especially the first time. Our installers tend to cover things like conduit and THHN type wire, but we send everything else. We've done installs for a few others and it was the same way.
This is 100% a bad deal, in case anyone reading this later is in doubt.

 

[Mr. Serious]

Well, it's been almost two months since the conversation before. We have now worked with this company for three full weeks. They paid me for the first week, I just sent the bill for the second week yesterday, and will try to bill for the third week today. See how it goes. It definitely keeps us busy.

The main thing that bothers me is, 90% of these solar power systems seem too large. I don't know, maybe things have changed with the current price of solar panels, but last time I really paid attention a few years ago, you generally didn't want to go with a system over 5 or 6 kW for the average home, definitely not over 7kW. But these systems we're installing are usually 10 to 20 kW. I don't think the homeowners would ever recover their financial outlay on such a large system. In Oklahoma, net metering only applies up to the point where you offset all your power use. Anything additional over that is only paid at the wholesale rate, which was about 2.8 cents per kWh here, the last time I checked.

 

[SolarJax]

Well, it's been almost two months since the conversation before. We have now worked with this company for three full weeks. They paid me for the first week, I just sent the bill for the second week yesterday, and will try to bill for the third week today. See how it goes. It definitely keeps us busy.

The main thing that bothers me is, 90% of these solar power systems seem too large. I don't know, maybe things have changed with the current price of solar panels, but last time I really paid attention a few years ago, you generally didn't want to go with a system over 5 or 6 kW for the average home, definitely not over 7kW. But these systems we're installing are usually 10 to 20 kW. I don't think the homeowners would ever recover their financial outlay on such a large system. In Oklahoma, net metering only applies up to the point where you offset all your power use. Anything additional over that is only paid at the wholesale rate, which was about 2.8 cents per kWh here, the last time I checked.

With that type of net metering option, you are correct. This company sounds predatory, definitely stay on top of them for payments.

 

[petersonra]

Well, it's been almost two months since the conversation before. We have now worked with this company for three full weeks. They paid me for the first week, I just sent the bill for the second week yesterday, and will try to bill for the third week today. See how it goes. It definitely keeps us busy.

The main thing that bothers me is, 90% of these solar power systems seem too large. I don't know, maybe things have changed with the current price of solar panels, but last time I really paid attention a few years ago, you generally didn't want to go with a system over 5 or 6 kW for the average home, definitely not over 7kW. But these systems we're installing are usually 10 to 20 kW. I don't think the homeowners would ever recover their financial outlay on such a large system. In Oklahoma, net metering only applies up to the point where you offset all your power use. Anything additional over that is only paid at the wholesale rate, which was about 2.8 cents per kWh here, the last time I checked.

might be more cost effective to only design and buy equipment for certain sizes.

and keep in mind none of these systems are cost effective to the home owner except for the direct and indirect subsidies.

 

[wwhitney]

and keep in mind none of these systems are cost effective to the home owner except for the direct and indirect subsidies.

That's highly dependent on local electrical rates. There are certainly markets where it would be cost effective even with no subsidies (ITC) and no credit for exported power.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. The subsidies exist primarily to introduce the appropriate price disparity from other more harmful forms of electrical generation without having to tax them.

 

[ggunn]

Well, it's been almost two months since the conversation before. We have now worked with this company for three full weeks. They paid me for the first week, I just sent the bill for the second week yesterday, and will try to bill for the third week today. See how it goes. It definitely keeps us busy.

The main thing that bothers me is, 90% of these solar power systems seem too large. I don't know, maybe things have changed with the current price of solar panels, but last time I really paid attention a few years ago, you generally didn't want to go with a system over 5 or 6 kW for the average home, definitely not over 7kW. But these systems we're installing are usually 10 to 20 kW. I don't think the homeowners would ever recover their financial outlay on such a large system. In Oklahoma, net metering only applies up to the point where you offset all your power use. Anything additional over that is only paid at the wholesale rate, which was about 2.8 cents per kWh here, the last time I checked.

10-20kW is indeed large for a typical residential PV system. Many houses won't even have enough producing roof area to accommodate a system that big. If indeed they are selling homeowners systems that will not pay for themselves in a reasonable amount of time, are you ethically comfortable participating in an endeavor like that?

 

[Mr. Serious]

10-20kW is indeed large for a typical residential PV system. Many houses won't even have enough producing roof area to accommodate a system that big. If indeed they are selling homeowners systems that will not pay for themselves in a reasonable amount of time, are you ethically comfortable participating in an endeavor like that?

That's a good point, and one I've thought about, but prefer to ignore for the moment. Right now, this is the only thing keeping my company alive, and that's if they continue to come through with the payments. But, perhaps at this point I should just close the business. I've been in business for 18 months, and my business has always lost money, because I can't keep up with billing my customers and also keep up with generating new work to keep my guys busy.

I'm not really comfortable participating in this scheme. The system we're currently installing today is the biggest one we've done so far, with 48 panels, and they are putting panels on all sides of the roof, so they're facing north, south, east, and west. Those north-facing ones are never going to get direct sunlight, I know.

 

[wwhitney]

Those north-facing ones are never going to get direct sunlight, I know.

What's the roof pitch, and is the azimuth due north? (Just curious)

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ggunn]

What's the roof pitch, and is the azimuth due north? (Just curious)

Cheers, Wayne

We sometimes put modules on north facing roofs. For commercial roofs the slope is often 5 degrees or so, so there's not that much difference between N and S facing roofs. For resi systems (which I don't do anymore) we do a TSRF evaluation and set a threshold.

 

[jaggedben]

If someone has an EV or two and a large air-conditioning load, and/or electric heating in the winter, a system larger than 10kW may be appropriate. But I've never worked on a residential project as large as 20kW for a single building with one meter. Only for large, multi-building estates, or multi-unit buildings with the project split between meters.

North facing panels can be cost effective if the slope is about 15deg or less and depending on the cost of electricity.

 

[jaggedben]

and keep in mind none of these systems are cost effective to the home owner except for the direct and indirect subsidies.

I'm not completely up to speed on Oklahoma, but a back-of-the-envelope calc based on 5 minutes of googling is that an appropriately sized system at a reasonably competitive price would save 150% of its upfront cost over its lifetime before any incentives. So that's cost effective to the homeowner. The federal tax credit bumps it up to 214%, by decreasing the upfront cost. In California those numbers on average could be something like 250% and 350%, respectively, assuming both higher installation costs but also proportionally higher electricity costs.

 

[GoldDigger]

If someone has an EV or two and a large air-conditioning load, and/or electric heating in the winter, a system larger than 10kW may be appropriate. But I've never worked on a residential project as large as 20kW for a single building with one meter. Only for large, multi-building estates, or multi-unit buildings with the project split between meters.

North facing panels can be cost effective if the slope is about 15deg or less and depending on the cost of electricity.

And the latitude of the installation, presumably?

 

[jaggedben]

And the latitude of the installation, presumably?

Sure. Obviously as you go higher latitude that slope decreases.

For example, at mid latitude for the US, all else being equal, 15deg north produces 75% as much as 15deg south. (20deg north produces 69%. Flat produces 89% of 15deg south.) When you consider that between different buildings all else - particularly shade - may not be equal, it's the case that on a house with shade 15deg south may produce the same as 15deg north on a house with no shade.

 

[Mr. Serious]

I was going to go help them with this one because it was large, and because I wanted to see the roof mounting is done. However, other responsibilities kept me in the office, and I didn't help with it, so I didn't get to see it first hand. Here is some information I am finding on it now:

Latitude: all the jobs we're currently working on are between 35 and 37 degrees. This particular one is about 36.15 degrees N latitude.

Size of system/other loads: the house is decently-sized so you would think maybe they have other loads that justify the size of the system. But I believe my crew told me when they got there, they found a 100A main panel, which was not large enough for the solar power system, so they ended up changing the main panel out to a 200A one to start with (which the solar company bought all the materials for). I'm looking at some information about the house now. It was built in 1981 and it's 2541 square feet, all crammed into a house that doesn't look that large from the outside. So if no other loads were added since it was built, it would make sense they would still have the 100A panel. This was missed by the people writing up the blueprints. They must have just assumed it was 200A.

Shape/orientation: The second story is hidden under a steeply-sloped roof, probably 1:1 pitch from the pictures. The house is situated at a 45 degree angle from the cardinal directions. The front faces SE. Actually, roof pitches are noted on the prints and are generally 7:12 to 8:12 if the prints match what's really there.


Panels/directions: Solar panels are 410 peak watts each. There are 58 panels, (not 48 like I said before). The total system is listed on the prints as 23.780 kWp (I guess in some imaginary world where the four suns shine down from all directions at once).
Front SE-facing roof: 23 panels. Prints say "roof pitch 8:12" and "tilt: 35 degrees."
Front gable above garage: 8 panels, four facing 45° and four facing 225°. Pitch 7:12, tilt 30 degrees.
Rear main roof facing NW: 18 panels, pitch 8:12, tilt 35 degrees.
Small rear gable: 1 panel facing SW, pitch 7:12, 35 degrees.
additional rear roof extension over back porch: 8 panels, pitch 2:12, tilt 12 degrees.

Shade: some trees are visible behind the house in the picture, but those are the closest ones. The neighboring house to the SW is closer. There are similar trees in front of the house, but they're further away, across the street. And of course, the house gables will offer partial shade to each other.

Overall, this one doesn't make sense. This is the most egregious example of an oversized system with panels installed where they don't even provide much power, that we have done. Other systems we have installed with this company make more sense than this, but almost all of them are at least slightly over-sized, in my opinion.

 

[ggunn]

And the latitude of the installation, presumably?

Sure, and in high snow areas the homes are typically built with steeply sloping roofs, which makes north facing roofs even less productive.