Violation or not?

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kbsparky

kbsparky

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Delmarva, USA
Take a new house, with a 12x12 concrete patio in the back. There is an outside receptacle outlet at the patio area, and this is within 25 feet of the outdoor A/C unit. So far, so good. :smile:

Scenario #1: Build a glass-enclosed sunroom on the patio. Since the "outside" receptacle is no longer outside, I figure that another outside receptacle needs to be installed to comply with 210.52(E), and 210.63. :grin:

Scenario #2: Build a screen enclosure around the patio. There is a screen door leading outside towards the A/C unit. Since this area is still considered "outside" and not living space, is another outside receptacle required to be installed?
Is this existing "outside" receptacle still considered accessible? :confused:
 
interesting scenario's but is this enclosure being added as you work on it or are you just trying to look out for the HVAC guy in the future..wonder if he will give you some cash for making sure he does not need an extension cord when he evacuates the system years from now..
 
I agree with 'splinetto' as to "Accessible" ( as applied to equipment ) the

gfic recpt. can't be located behind a locked door, a screen porch door would

have some kind of lock. imo needs new recpt. for AC equipment.
 
Build a screen enclosure around the patio. There is a screen door leading outside towards the A/C unit. Since this area is still considered "outside" and not living space, is another outside receptacle required to be installed?
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Yes, another outside receptacle is required. As a matter of fact it is required even if you don't screen in the patio. The outside receptacle must be accessible while standing on grade. If you have to get on the patio to plug in the cord, the receptacle is not in compliance with 210.52(E).
(E) Outdoor Outlets For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (6 1/ 2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.
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2-231 Log #1624 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.52(E))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: James Tente, City of Naperville
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at
grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible while standing at grade
level and not more than 2.0 m (6 1/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the
front and back of the dwelling where the dwelling unit is located at grade level
and provided with individual exterior entrance/egress, at least one receptacle
outlet accessible. While standing from on grade level and not more than 2.0 m
(6 1/2 ft) above grade shall be installed. See 210.8(A)(3).
Substantiation: Present language is vague. The interpretation of ?accessible?
can vary greatly and is commonly misinterpreted. The panel statement for 2005
ROP 2-236 (Log #3197) clarifies the meaning of ?accessible? and should be
included in code text for clarity.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel reaffirms it?s previous position that ?at grade?
means ?while standing on grade?. See the panel action and statement on
Proposal 2-230.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
WEBER, R.: The panel should have accepted this proposal as submitted,
when we consider the full range of the persons using the code simplified
language as recommended will solve a lot of confusion of the requirement
being encountered out in the field. The addition of the term ?while standing? at
grade will make it clear that a receptacle installed on an elevated porch, that is
accessible by stairs from grade, would not meet the requirements of section
210.52(E).
Click to expand...
2-232 Log #2223 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.52(E))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Donald A. Ganiere, Ottawa, IL
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family
dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at from
grade level and not more than 2.0 m (6 1/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at
the front and back of the dwelling.
Substantiation: There is no safety hazard in having the required outdoor
receptacles located above an open porch or deck. The intent is to have the
receptacles located in a location that is easily accessible from the outside. In
many dwelling units it is not possible to comply with the existing code rule as
there are open porches or decks installed across the front and back of the
building.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: See the panel action and statement on Proposal 2-230.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
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The sun porch is NOT a permanent dwelling, at best you could call it a shed or utility space. To qualify as a permanent living space it would need vapor barrier, insulation, and HVAC.... to name just a few.

Someone else hit the nail on the head though, "is it accessible". I would say no, especially if the door could be locked.

My recommendation is to not argue about it and put in another recepticle outside the door to meet both the outside recepticle requirements and the "service" power requirements.
 
benaround said:
I agree with 'splinetto' as to "Accessible" ( as applied to equipment ) the

gfic recpt. can't be located behind a locked door, a screen porch door would

have some kind of lock. imo needs new recpt. for AC equipment.
Click to expand...

Yeh, I hate when someone breaks into my screen porch... so I make sure I always lock it... :grin:
 
benaround said:
I'm not quite sure how to take that, Stick !!
Click to expand...

Stick is saying that you would lock a screen door unless it was into the house. A lock would not stop someone getting on the porch. You could easily push thru the screen. No sense locking it.
 
I can't believe someone had to explain that to me, my favorite saying is

" be aware of your envirorment " guess it's time for a retest.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes, another outside receptacle is required. As a matter of fact it is required even if you don't screen in the patio. The outside receptacle must be accessible while standing on grade. If you have to get on the patio to plug in the cord, the receptacle is not in compliance with 210.52(E).
Click to expand...


You have Got to be kidding

It' Friday. After reading that, Frizbeedog decides he needs a margarita.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes, another outside receptacle is required. As a matter of fact it is required even if you don't screen in the patio. The outside receptacle must be accessible while standing on grade. If you have to get on the patio to plug in the cord, the receptacle is not in compliance with 210.52(E).
Click to expand...

So you are telling me that the outlet on my concrete patio does not meet code because it is not grade level..You only have to step up 6 inches..man it meets my code..
 
iwire said:
Is a screen house indoors?
Click to expand...

What does that change ?
Using that reasoning we could just open any window and say plug it in.Come on Bob your brighter than that.

While we are on this subject why did they pick 25 feet ? On job now with 15 rtu and its crazy
 
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cschmid,
So you are telling me that the outlet on my concrete patio does not meet code because it is not grade level..You only have to step up 6 inches..man it meets my code..
Click to expand...
Look at the proposals and the panel comment that I posted. If you can't plug the code in while standing on the ground, the receptacle does not meet the requirements of the rule.
don
 
benaround said:
I can't believe someone had to explain that to me, my favorite saying is

" be aware of your envirorment " guess it's time for a retest.
Click to expand...

No, carry on...

Thanks, I'll use that Monday, as we go WORK!!!
 
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