Was this performed by a licensed electrical contractor?

[tonype]

Remodel and flip home - "Builder" claims work was performed by a licensed electrical contractor, but my feeling is that he did the work under someone elses license (since he was in the middle of replacing a breaker when I got there) - I see alot of this happening (the licensee is nowhere near the job).

At any rate, terminal bar contains oxidation corrosion (see photo) and there are 3 instances where the new circuit bare grounding and grounded neutral conductors share terminal bar screw.

The panel is also a ca. 1973 Square D - most ID stickers are missing - only reference a panel enclosure of QOBW20M100. Building has already put in one tandem, and is planning a 2nd; however, I question if this panel can accomodate tandems - does any one have old references on this?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1160916_edited-1.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1160918_edited-1.jpg

 

[infinity]

The licensed contractor part is a loaded question. More and more we never see the license holder working on the job. If fact unless you're a one man show the work is almost always done by someone who's unlicensed.

 

[goldstar]

Remodel and flip home - "Builder" claims work was performed by a licensed electrical contractor, but my feeling is that he did the work under someone elses license (since he was in the middle of replacing a breaker when I got there) - I see alot of this happening (the licensee is nowhere near the job).

I agree with Rob on this. You only need one license holder who can hire hundreds of electricians to work under him and he will have the ultimate responsibility. If you want to nit-pick you can go down to the town hall and find out who the EC is (if they filed for an electrical permit). If not and if you know for a fact that this GC repeatedly does his own electrical work (and if you really have heartburn over this) you can turn him into the State Board of Electrical Examiners. The fine is $1K for the first offense. It's a 4th degree felony. But, make sure you're right about this before taking action.

The panel is also a ca. 1973 Square D - most ID stickers are missing - only reference a panel enclosure of QOBW20M100. Building has already put in one tandem, and is planning a 2nd; however, I question if this panel can accomodate tandems - does any one have old references on this?

I don't have reference but the panel is a basic 20 circuit-100 amp panel. If the label is still on the panel cover that usually is a good indicator as to whether the panel was approved to accept tandems. There's usually a dashed line in a breaker slot location or a marking of "A" and "B" for a particular breaker slot.

 

[tonype]

I don't have reference but the panel is a basic 20 circuit-100 amp panel. If the label is still on the panel cover that usually is a good indicator as to whether the panel was approved to accept tandems. There's usually a dashed line in a breaker slot location or a marking of "A" and "B" for a particular breaker slot.

All panel labels are missing except for the one I previously identified - only glue residues remain.

 

[tonype]

I agree with Rob on this. You only need one license holder who can hire hundreds of electricians to work under him and he will have the ultimate responsibility. If you want to nit-pick you can go down to the town hall and find out who the EC is (if they filed for an electrical permit). If not and if you know for a fact that this GC repeatedly does his own electrical work (and if you really have heartburn over this) you can turn him into the State Board of Electrical Examiners. The fine is $1K for the first offense. It's a 4th degree felony. But, make sure you're right about this before taking action..

I do not get that involved in the research or any accusations. I generally just tell the client to have the licensed electrical contractor for the job re-visit some of these items for clarification and possible modifications. A diplomatic method of doing things.

 

[jetlag]

The licensed contractor part is a loaded question. More and more we never see the license holder working on the job. If fact unless you're a one man show the work is almost always done by someone who's unlicensed.

You should hear some of the calls I get, " I have a wiring job that was done and the man was almost finished but he died and I just need some one to check it and pull a permit because the power co said I need inspected to get power back on " Another one said the electrician was in intensive care, I checked the last one and the home owner had pulled his own permit but his permit was cancelled for shotty work . I get a lot from handy men who build on additions , wire it theirself then say the electrician took of to another state and they need some one to check it out and pull another permit. It only taakes a few questions to catch them in a lie of some kind.

 

[jumper]

The panel is also a ca. 1973 Square D - most ID stickers are missing - only reference a panel enclosure of QOBW20M100. Building has already put in one tandem, and is planning a 2nd; however, I question if this panel can accomodate tandems - does any one have old references on this?

I am not positive, but I would have expected to see something in the panel reference number to indicate tandems, such as:

QOBW2040M100

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You did not tell us what the inspection was for. The license issue depends on where your at but most states allow owner / builder permits. The work is bad but i seen far worse. You should tag the violations and only site violations by code number. That way he will need to either hire a licensed man or do some reading. Lot depends on your local laws. I see what looks like unsecured romex. Give this place a good 3 hour inspection and write up everything you can if what you think is a hack job.

 

[jim dungar]

I question if this panel can accomodate tandems - does any one have old references on this?

Panels this age were built as a Circuiting Limiting (CTL) type, this means the proper tandem breaker is the more expensive QOTxxyy style, which will not fit into an improper panel.

The breakers snap on to a metal mounting rail, a panel that allows tandem breaker will have slots cut into the side of the mounting to accept the rejection feature of the QOT breaker (actually this true even with the newer non-metallic mounting pans.

Because of its labeling for replacement use in "old style non-CTL panels", some people say that you can not use the generic QOxxyy tandem in panels built since the late 60's, even though 'everybody' does it. Regardless you may not put any tandem breaker into any panel not intended for them, as indicated by the mounting rail slot.

 

[joebell]

Looks to me like that tandem breaker is feeding a MWBC, that neutral conductor won't be white for very long. As jim said this is bad but I too have seen worse.




Joe

 

[hillbilly1]

I quit doing side work a couple of years ago (The contractor I work for does not do residential, so there was no conflict of interest or competition) and the other day a builder I used to do a lot of work for wanted me to start back up, or let him do the work and have me inspect it. He is having a hard time finding a replacement contractor (all of which were licensed) to be able to pass inspections the first time, and then actually make it work the first time. The contractor you were inspecting had probably been turned down before due to panel labeling, so he took a pre-emptive strike by removing the info.

 

[brantmacga]

Panels this age were built as a Circuiting Limiting (CTL) type, this means the proper tandem breaker is the more expensive QOTxxyy style, which will not fit into an improper panel.

I believe you meant to say "non-CTL".

A CTL tandem runs about $20; the non-CTL tandems are $40.

Panels from that period would be non-CTL.

The newer QO's have a slotted rail, and the CTL tandem has a hook that goes through the slots if the panel will accept them.

Anyhow, its my understanding that a non-CTL panel can be used w/ non-CTL tandem circuit breakers without issue.

 

[480sparky]

I believe you meant to say "non-CTL".

A CTL tandem runs about $20; the non-CTL tandems are $40.

Panels from that period would be non-CTL.

The newer QO's have a slotted rail, and the CTL tandem has a hook that goes through the slots if the panel will accept them.

Anyhow, its my understanding that a non-CTL panel can be used w/ non-CTL tandem circuit breakers without issue.

​

​

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . only reference a panel enclosure of QOBW20M100 . . . I question if this panel can accomodate tandems - does any one have old references on this?

This particular panel is an old acquaintence. I installed alot of them in the late '70s and early '80s.

This basic 100 A 20 pole box is not rated for tandems, IMO.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Looks to me like that tandem breaker is feeding a MWBC . . .

Joe,

Great catch!

 

[jim dungar]

I believe you meant to say "non-CTL".

No. I did mean CTL.

CTL panels were built all the way back into the 60's.

The OP panel is definitely of the CTL design, which means it will reject CTL breakers. However most people seem to favor the non-CTL QOxxyy breaker instead, because they can install it anywhere they want.

I just checked the CTL QOTxxyy is listed as $58 and the non-CTL QOxxyy is $73.

 

[jetlag]

You did not tell us what the inspection was for. The license issue depends on where your at but most states allow owner / builder permits. The work is bad but i seen far worse. You should tag the violations and only site violations by code number. That way he will need to either hire a licensed man or do some reading. Lot depends on your local laws. I see what looks like unsecured romex. Give this place a good 3 hour inspection and write up everything you can if what you think is a hack job.

In Ga you can get a homeowners permit on your own house you live in but you can not hire some one to do the work after you get the permit. Most of the time they can never get it pass inspection , after two trips out they start to charge you for another permit every time the inspector has to return. They wind up having to get somone with license to get permit and start over. But the house flippers never give up , they wire whole house and then call some one with license and say some one had rewired before they bought the house and they need it checked and permit pulled

 

[brantmacga]

No. I did mean CTL.

CTL panels were built all the way back into the 60's.

The OP panel is definitely of the CTL design, which means it will reject CTL breakers. However most people seem to favor the non-CTL QOxxyy breaker instead, because they can install it anywhere they want.

I just checked the CTL QOTxxyy is listed as $58 and the non-CTL QOxxyy is $73.

you've got it mixed up.

there's no panel built in that year i'm aware of that will accept a breaker from the CTL era; they reclassified the tandem's for them as non-CTL when the changes came about. i think you know what you're trying to say, you've just got the terms swapped.


and those prices are way out of line. i buy non-ctl's on a regular basis from rexel @ roughly $40ea. QOT2020's are slightly under $20.

 

[jim dungar]

you've got it mixed up.

there's no panel built in that year i'm aware of that will accept a breaker from the CTL era; they reclassified the tandem's for them as non-CTL when the changes came about. i think you know what you're trying to say, you've just got the terms swapped.


and those prices are way out of line. i buy non-ctl's on a regular basis from rexel @ roughly $40ea. QOT2020's are slightly under $20.

No.

That panel is from the CTL era (which began way back in the 60's), so if it accepts CTL breakers then it is listed for use with tandems.

They never "reclassified" their tandems, they simply started making the QOTxxyy version. The original QOxxyy is shown in their catalog as for use in "Non-Class CTL" but I have never seen any written proscription about using them in the 'tandem slot locations' of Class CTL panels.

The prices I quoted are list prices from Square D's Digest.

 

[jetlag]

Ive never understood why there has allways been such a big thing about the tandem (piggy back) breakers, the maker of the boxes say nothing about slapping in 100a breakers and mounting sub panels and loading with breakers, how could a few extra tandems every add up to that ?