Water Heater

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jwelectric said:
As an inspector should I see a jumper across a water heater I would write it up as a violation of the above mentioned code section.
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If the hot and cold piping were connected together via a metal mixing valve then would anything further be required? And if they were connected that way then the bonding jumper at the HWH would simply be redundant. As far as I know redundancy is not prohibited so in order for it to be a violation, as you've stated, then one would first need to establish that there is no metallic connection between the hot and cold water piping.

So if I'm understanding, you're saying that two completely separate hot and cold metal piping systems can only be bonded using one of the 4 methods previously mentioned and that a bonding jumper at the HWH would not satisfy the NEC.
 
No it is not what I am saying it is what is written in 250.104 so it must be what the NEC is saying.

Redundant or not the bond has one of four places to land and a short piece of wire between hot and cold is not mentioned.
 
jwelectric said:
No it is not what I am saying it is what is written in 250.104 so it must be what the NEC is saying.

Redundant or not the bond has one of four places to land and a short piece of wire between hot and cold is not mentioned.
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A short piece of # 4 or # 6 bare is exactly what it takes to satisfy the AHJ in some localities. The NEC is a permissive document.

If not prohibited then it must be allowed.
 
John120/240 said:
A short piece of # 4 or # 6 bare is exactly what it takes to satisfy the AHJ in some localities. The NEC is a permissive document.

If not prohibited then it must be allowed.
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When clear and concise instructions are given on how to do something there is no permission to do it another way and 250.104(A)(1) is very clear to those with the ability to read.

If not mandated then not required either.
 
jwelectric said:
No it is not what I am saying it is what is written in 250.104 so it must be what the NEC is saying.

Redundant or not the bond has one of four places to land and a short piece of wire between hot and cold is not mentioned.
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The NEC does not state it has to be a separate run nor does it state how it gets there. As long as it ends up in one of those places I don't see the issue.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The NEC does not state it has to be a separate run nor does it state how it gets there. As long as it ends up in one of those places I don't see the issue.
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I can see Mike's point if you can establish that there are two completely separate (hot and cold) systems. I'm not seeing where the current wording would allow a jumper between the two at the HWH to satisfy the bonding requirement. Admittedly that's somewhat ridiculous. :D
 
infinity said:
I can see Mike's point if you can establish that there are two completely separate (hot and cold) systems. I'm not seeing where the current wording would allow a jumper between the two at the HWH to satisfy the bonding requirement. Admittedly that's somewhat ridiculous. :D
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It still states in 250.104 (A)(1) that the bonding jumper shall be sized.... I guess I don't get it. I also don't see where the bonding conductor needs to be continuous.
 
You are right it doesn?t have to be continuous but the bonding jumper is required to land where?
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
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(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the (1) service equipment enclosure, (2) the grounded conductor at the service, (3) the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, (4) or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
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This non-continuous bonding jumper if installed must land on those four points that I have numbered above. I don?t see an allowance to bond the hot to the cold nor do I see a requirement to do so either.

The bonding of the gas line to the hot and cold at the water heater is also not allowed.
(B) Other Metal Piping. If installed in, or attached to, a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the (1) service equipment enclosure; (2) the grounded conductor at the service; (3) the grounding electrode conductor, (4) if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes used.
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Dang, is them the same four places that the water pipe has to bond to?

Personally I don?t believe any of this is required and all that is required is that a complete metal water system is to be bonded and the point of bond is required to be accessible, and the other end of this bonding jumper be it continuous or installed with short sections of wire must land on one of the four places outlined in 250.104(A)(1) and anything other than this would be a violation of said section.

Nothing would please my heart more than to be able to quote the CMP in their statement on a proposal concerning this.
 
We were discussing this very subject this morning when it was pointed out that 250.104 is a mandatory rule that is characterized by the use of the term shall, ie. In the body of subsection (A) shall be installed and again in subsection (A)(1) shall be bonded to and once again in subsection (B) shall be bonded to

There are no exceptions to these rules therefore there is no permission given to veer from these mandatory rules and bond pipe to pipe.
By section 250.104 any bonding done to any metal water pipes in subsection (A) or to a metal pipe of any kind in subsection (B) the bond must go to one of the four places outlined in that section.

During this discussion a story came up about a copper water piping system in a home that had a 400 amp service. The multi-trade inspector required a 1/0 copper bonding conductor to be installed and as a lot of electricians throughout our nation he bonded across the water heater.

Same multi-trade inspector did the plumbing inspection and allowed a non-metallic fitting for the ice maker. This fitting broke the continuity of the ? inch copper water pipe but no mention of any type of bond across the non-metallic fitting like this one.

nonmetallicfitting_zps31fa0761.jpg


If there is a requirement to bond across the water heater wouldn?t this fitting also require a bonding jumper? Wouldn?t the same rules apply here as to the water heater?
What code section could an inpector use to require this fitting to be bonded across?
 
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jwelectric said:
We were discussing this very subject this morning when it was pointed out that 250.104 is a mandatory rule that is characterized by the use of the term shall, ie. In the body of subsection (A) shall be installed and again in subsection (A)(1) shall be bonded to and once again in subsection (B) shall be bonded to

There are no exceptions to these rules therefore there is no permission given to veer from these mandatory rules and bond pipe to pipe.
By section 250.104 any bonding done to any metal water pipes in subsection (A) or to a metal pipe of any kind in subsection (B) the bond must go to one of the four places outlined in that section.

During this discussion a story came up about a copper water piping system in a home that had a 400 amp service. The multi-trade inspector required a 1/0 copper bonding conductor to be installed and as a lot of electricians throughout our nation he bonded across the water heater.

Same multi-trade inspector did the plumbing inspection and allowed a non-metallic fitting for the ice maker. This fitting broke the continuity of the ? inch copper water pipe but no mention of any type of bond across the non-metallic fitting like this one.

nonmetallicfitting_zps31fa0761.jpg


If there is a requirement to bond across the water heater wouldn?t this fitting also require a bonding jumper? Wouldn?t the same rules apply here as to the water heater?
What code section could an inpector use to require this fitting to be bonded across?
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(B)


250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes
Effective Grounding Path. The connection of a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be made in a manner that will ensure an effective grounding path. Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding path.
 
Gregg Harris said:
(B)


250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes
Effective Grounding Path. The connection of a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be made in a manner that will ensure an effective grounding path. Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding path.
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So this sounds, on its face, as intended to apply to insulated joints and removable equipment (e.g. water meter) found between the place where the GEC connects to the pipe and the buried sections of pipe which provide the actual earth ground connection. You could also interpret it to refer to the rest of the pipe system within the building where insulated joints and removable equipment (like a hot water heater) are present, but as it stands the wording is ambiguous on this subject. It also does not address bonding the parts of a metal piping system which for some reason is NOT used as a grounding electrode, but might become electrified.
 
GoldDigger said:
So this sounds, on its face, as intended to apply to insulated joints and removable equipment (e.g. water meter) found between the place where the GEC connects to the pipe and the buried sections of pipe which provide the actual earth ground connection. You could also interpret it to refer to the rest of the pipe system within the building where insulated joints and removable equipment (like a hot water heater) are present, but as it stands the wording is ambiguous on this subject. It also does not address bonding the parts of a metal piping system which for some reason is NOT used as a grounding electrode, but might become electrified.
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250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
 
Gregg Harris said:
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
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But that still does not address whether that continuity can be provided by pipe-to-pipe jumpers or requires separate wires back to one of the four designated points.
 
GoldDigger said:
But that still does not address whether that continuity can be provided by pipe-to-pipe jumpers or requires separate wires back to one of the four designated points.
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By placing the bonding jumper across the hot to cold at the water heater it maintains continuity of the water piping system when it is being serviced or replaced. On large commercial water heaters there are times where it is necessary to drain and remove the heater to replace the Anode rods in it or even replacing the whole thing. It may have dielectric unions on it that need to be bonded across to maintain continuity.
 
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment
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fair enough, but most of the time the piping systems we are discussing in this thread are not grounding electrode conductors or part of the GES because of the 5 foot rule. Of course in a commercial installation this could come into play and allow the jumper.
 
Gregg Harris said:
(B)


250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes
Effective Grounding Path. The connection of a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be made in a manner that will ensure an effective grounding path. Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding path.
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Yes the conductor has to be electrically continuous but the pipe is not required to be
 
electrofelon said:
fair enough, but most of the time the piping systems we are discussing in this thread are not grounding electrode conductors or part of the GES because of the 5 foot rule. Of course in a commercial installation this could come into play and allow the jumper.
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Interior metal piping on a residential dwelling with a plastic water service is still required to be bonded. The water service is not a grounding electrode, but all of the interior metal piping must have continuity back to the service in some way. If there are dielectric unions on the hot water heater then there would need to be a bonding jumper around them tha same as the yoke on an interioor water meter that is connected to a metal water service.
 
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