Water Heater

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jwelectric said:
Yes the conductor has to be electrically continuous but the pipe is not required to be
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So this verbiage was added because it was not needed. The water meeter that has neopreen gaskets as seals and are not conductive don't really need a bonding jumper across them because the piping system does not require it to be electrically conductive, or a water heater with dielectric unions or a water heater that never needs to be serviced or replaced.


''bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding"
 
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Gregg Harris said:
So this verbiage was added because it was not needed. The water meeter that has neopreen gaskets as seals and are not conductive don't really need a bonding jumper across them because the piping system does not require it to be electrically conductive, or a water heater with dielectric unions or a water heater that never needs to be serviced or replaced.


''bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding"
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Article 250 has 10 parts. Part III or the section you are quoting is addressing the grounding electrode system and the grounding electrode conductor. Part (B) of 250.68 is addressing the connection to the electrode and the water heater would not come into play here unless the water heater was within the first five feet of metal water pipe entering the building or in an industrial, commercial, and institutional buildings where only people who have had the proper training work on it.

What is being discussed in this thread is Part V and the electrode has no role other than it is one of the places that the bonding conductor can land. In Part (A) of 250.104 we are sent back to Part III in Section 250.64(A),(B), and (E) the method in which to install the bonding conductor but there is no mention of 250.68 therefore nothing in Part III other than the sections referenced would apply to the bonding.
 
Gregg Harris said:
''bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding"
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The bonding around devices that allow removal such as meters and filters can be installed without being at the device.

If there is 10 feet or more of metal water pipe in contact with earth we can install the Grounding Electrode Conductor anywhere within the first five feet.

This is a complete metal water piping system in the building therefore it is required to be bonded by 250.104 but this bond is not required to be installed from the electrode (the part in the ground or the first five feet where it enters the building) it can be installed from the service equipment and land at any accessible point on the piping system.

bondingapipe_zps27910ae8.jpg
 
jwelectric said:
The bonding around devices that allow removal such as meters and filters can be installed without being at the device.

If there is 10 feet or more of metal water pipe in contact with earth we can install the Grounding Electrode Conductor anywhere within the first five feet.

This is a complete metal water piping system in the building therefore it is required to be bonded by 250.104 but this bond is not required to be installed from the electrode (the part in the ground or the first five feet where it enters the building) it can be installed from the service equipment and land at any accessible point on the piping system.

bondingapipe_zps27910ae8.jpg
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So Mike just to clarify, are you saying or do you agree that:
1. in your drawing, if the water meter was non conductive, and if the 250.52 bond was connected on the right side of the water meter, a bonding jumper around it would be ok
2. if the water heater and the water meter were nonconductive thru, then the piping system between them would need to be bonded back to one of the 4 acceptable places
3. If the water heater and water meter were conductive, the 250.52 bond in you picture would also serve as the 250.104 bond
4. say in your picture the water heater were thru conductive but the water meter was not. do you agree it is then acceptable to keep your 250.52 bond as shown, eliminate the 250.104 as shown, and install a jumper across the water meter. now the water piping (to the right of the meter) is bonded (with the jumper across the water meter) to one of the grounding electrodes which is one of the 4 acceptable places to land the jumper?
5. say the water heater is non conductive but the water meter is. Also say there is 10 feet of pipe between the meter and heater. Your 250.52 is installed as shown, you 250.104 is eliminated. you could not bond with a jumper around the water heater because that jumper is NOT landing on one of the four acceptable places. Even though there is no requirement that the bonding jumper be continuous, you propose that the ten feet of pipe cant act as a section of the bonding jumper bonding the interior piping to the grounding electrode (underground water pipe)?
 
One thing I've been told is, the code requires systems to be bonded, not every piece of every system. So jumping over a plastic fitting in a copper line seems like it's not required. I've always thought of the hot and cold piping to be parts of the plumbing supply system, not seperate systems.
Thanks
MIke
 
In NC our state inspector told me they look at it as a complete system if 51% of the water piping is copper. Mike did you ever ask Ron about this. I recall you had doubts about it.
 
electrofelon said:
So Mike just to clarify, are you saying or do you agree that:
1. in your drawing, if the water meter was non conductive, and if the 250.52 bond was connected on the right side of the water meter, a bonding jumper around it would be ok
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If the 250.52(A)(1) bond was on the house side of the water meter then a bonding jumper to the electrode side of the meter would be required by 250.53(D)(1)
electrofelon said:
2. if the water heater and the water meter were nonconductive thru, then the piping system between them would need to be bonded back to one of the 4 acceptable places
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Once the 250.52(A)(1) GEC in installed to the grounding electrode then the bonding required by 250.104(A)(1) has only one requirement and that is that the point where it hits the pipe be accessible. Yes to install the 250.104(A)(1) bond it could land anywhere on the pipe and nothing else would be required to be done at the water heater.

electrofelon said:
3. If the water heater and water meter were conductive, the 250.52 bond in you picture would also serve as the 250.104 bond
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If the meter was conductive and the 250.52(A)(1) GEC was on the house side of the meter a bond would be required by 250.53(D)(1). There is no requirement in the NEC concerning the water heater

electrofelon said:
4. say in your picture the water heater were thru conductive but the water meter was not. do you agree it is then acceptable to keep your 250.52 bond as shown, eliminate the 250.104 as shown, and install a jumper across the water meter. now the water piping (to the right of the meter) is bonded (with the jumper across the water meter) to one of the grounding electrodes which is one of the 4 acceptable places to land the jumper?
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No. the 250.104(A)(1) bond has four places it can land. Across a water heater is not mentioned anywhere in the NEC.

electrofelon said:
5. say the water heater is non conductive but the water meter is. Also say there is 10 feet of pipe between the meter and heater. Your 250.52 is installed as shown, you 250.104 is eliminated. you could not bond with a jumper around the water heater because that jumper is NOT landing on one of the four acceptable places. Even though there is no requirement that the bonding jumper be continuous, you propose that the ten feet of pipe cant act as a section of the bonding jumper bonding the interior piping to the grounding electrode (underground water pipe)?
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The interior metal water piping can bond to one of the electrodes so yes it could bond across the water meter and that is all that is required. There is no requirement to make a water piping system electrically continuous. There is no requirement to bond across a water heater or a piece of non-metallic pipe found somewhere in the piping system

The proposal has been posted on this site so many time that it is beginning to get wore out.
5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.

Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
 
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
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Mike, considering the above quote, re-read the situation in my #2. How can you say that isolated section is not requited to be bonded (assume an electric water heater)?
 
electrofelon said:
Mike, considering the above quote, re-read the situation in my #2. How can you say that isolated section is not requited to be bonded (assume an electric water heater)?
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electrofelon said:
2. if the water heater and the water meter were nonconductive thru, then the piping system between them would need to be bonded back to one of the 4 acceptable places
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Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
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250.104(B) Other Metal Piping. If installed in, or attached to, a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor, if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
 
From what I read if the hot and cold water coming out of the water heater have plastic connection and for the sake of argument the pipe into the house is plastic and the rest is metal except-- for the connection at the water heater, then I would surmise that no bond may be necessary on either pipe.
 
The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means
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Right, was aware of this for the gas piping, forgot it applied to other piping systems as well. So it is tough to imagine a scenario where a separate bond would be needed for the interior piping system, if the incoming pipe is nonmetallic..
 
electrofelon said:
Right, was aware of this for the gas piping, forgot it applied to other piping systems as well. So it is tough to imagine a scenario where a separate bond would be needed for the interior piping system, if the incoming pipe is nonmetallic..
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I am not sure it applies to water piping as the title states other piping systems
 
I know the NEC handbook notes are not code, but I think this applies to the OP.
The 2008 handbook notes for 250.104.(A)(1) include "Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made."
Thanks
Mike
 
Mitigating circumstance often serve as a guide in interpretation & enforcement. Several years ago, we had a gentleman electrocuted by some non-bonded water piping while working in a church crawl space. Since that incident, the inspectors have been rather insistent on a cold/hot water bond. Cost vs liability pretty much squashed any opposition.
The fact that it can even be argued that it is a Code requirement promotes compliance.
 
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