WATER HEATERS

[luke warmwater]

Re: WATER HEATERS

...and many electricians do not know how to smoke, I mean sweat a joint properly... but I know many plumbers that do

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Tony, are you serious?

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Should a 65 dollar an hour electrician be required to connect the heater, then the heaters will be cord and plug connected.

I am for keeping all legitimate work for electricians, but I also like to protect the consumer. This is because I are one

Bennie,

Can we agree that anyone who is permitted by Law to do Electrical work should know something about it and show proof of that somehow? Part of protecting the consumer is making sure that the people doing work on their house know what they're doing.

Notice I'm not saying Plumbers shouldn't be able to reconnect Water Heaters, if they are I think there should be Electrical related questions on their exam.

In these pictures the Plumber did the Electrical work reconnecting this Boiler. He only charged "1/2 what an Electrician would've charged". It works OK, but as you can see he used the wrong materials and also cut the pipes with a pipe cutter, (sharp edges inside) and I don't know what condition the grounding is in, so who made out here?

I'm not saying that many Plumbers are not capable of doing safe, code compliant Electrical work, but many are not. If they're going to do it why shouldn't they be tested on it?

Bill

 

[bennie]

Re: WATER HEATERS

I battled protectionism of work jurisdiction for 50 years. It got to the point we almost had to hire a carpenter to sharpen our pencil.

The process was so violently enforced that some turned to murder on the jobs. I once carried a 38 in my lunch pail.

I think work should be performed in a safe manner, but limiting the number of persons who can perform the work has many negative repercussions.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

I battled protectionism of work jurisdiction for 50 years

Bennie,

If you're responding to me that's not what I'm talking about here. It appears to me like you're just trying to stir a pot.

Bill

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Bill, I agree with you on what you show, which this plumber added to or changed a part of the wiring system.
But for a 10/2 nm that enters a connector on a 50gal water heater, I think that a licensed plumber should be able to handle turning it off, disconnecting the supply, reconnecting the supply exactly as it was, and turning it on after the water level is full.

Ryan,
I too believe in professional licensure and hold more than one State Electrical license. I would say that this is maintenance, just like changing a defectice single pole switch or a receptacle with loose terminal prongs.
As long as there is no changing or adding to or taking from the installation, I don't see the problem.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

That picture is worth a thousand words

 

[monkey]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Ryan,
Here in Arizona there is also a handyman license available with a total dollar limitation as well, however I remember there were limitations on the types work allowed, for example, no plumbing or electrical that would require a permit. That would pretty much leave out anything except changing a fixture or device and drain clearing. However, repairs are a gray area as most repairs don't require a permit.
Brian

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: WATER HEATERS

is the copper pipe there to let the smoke out??

 

[iwire]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Luke it just comes down to where you draw the line.

Yes a straight replacement is easy until you find that the old circuit is inadequate, done wrong from the start, has no EGC, does not have a disconnect etc.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

But for a 10/2 nm that enters a connector on a 50gal water heater, I think that a licensed plumber should be able to handle turning it off, disconnecting the supply, reconnecting the supply exactly as it was, ...

Todd,

Not meaning to be argumentative, If you mean that he should be allowed to, I'm not disputing that. By us the Plumber would take a simplified Electrical exam and he would be allowed to do it.

If you mean he should be smart enough, or something like that I agree that he should be, but in reality how do you know that he can do it? If the ground wire breaks off, how do you know he understands it's importance and will make sure it gets connected somehow? If He cuts his pipe with a pipecutter he knows that the water has never complained, but how does he know that the wires he's pulling through might not like it too much?

Which one did you mean?

Bill

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

If we pushed this to the limit the plumber had no right to even un hook that wire.
Permit's are what pushes too many homeowners into doing it themself or using a handyman.Would rather see a plumber take a test on wiring or better yet electrician take test on blumbing ,with a limit to just water heaters.
Should i even dare bring up dishwashers or disposals?

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Bill, I'm not being arguementative to piss anyone off, only for the sake of aruing one side as a way to learn. I can jump ship and argue your side as well, but you're doing a fine job
more your first question.
As to your second, I think anyone could be smart enough to do it, but not everyone should.
I work in one locality that has a law that if you are caught doing electrical work without a license, you go to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

And hey, let's face it, anyone can be smart enough to pass a test, but does that even really mean that the same person has the ability to do the work??

I know an electrician, took the test, and goes to continuing ed. seminars. He called me the other day about a hot tub hook-up. The tub was 240v 2-wire plus ground. He installed a 2p.50a. breaker in the main panel, ran a 6/2wg to an outside disconnect mounted on the wall of the house where he installed a 2p50a GFCI breaker. He went from there to the tub in pvc with (2)#6 hots and (1)#6 ground. In the disconnect he 'floated' the grounds with a split bolt.
Getting the point yet?
His call to me was that the Spa supply company sent someone out to check on the tub. He didn't like the way the electrical hook-up looked, so he called his own electrician to check it. Spa co.'s electrician told homeowner that installation was not safe. (it had not yet been inspected).
This Licensed Electrician actually hooked the white wire from the GFCI breaker to the unbonded neutral bar in the disconnect, but never brought a neutral from the main panel. He told me that was how the INSPECTOR told him how to do a 2-wire hot tub. I don't that I believe that part.
He didn't know what to do and called for my advice. The spa co.'s electrician told him that he would have to run a 4-wire to the outside disconnect. I told him to swap the 2 breakers. I don't like the GFCI outside anyway. He did and he passed the inspection.
I'm not 100% convinced that the piece of paper means as much as we would think that it should sometimes.
I don't know it all, but this to me seemed to be rudamentary.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

I'm not 100% convinced that the piece of paper means as much as we would think that it should sometimes.

Todd,

Some things are very predictable. One of them is that this argument will always come up. The system's not perfect, but it's all we've got.


Bill

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Glad to see he found an easy fix.We all make a few mistakes .Learn from them and go on to the next job.I do belive i would have prefered a nuetral wire even if this tub didn't need it ,the next one just might.

 

[pierre]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Bill hit it right on the head, as it is not a perfect world and never will be. PEOPLE will do electrical and PEOPLE will do plumbing, etc...

But... I took a test, I worked for a company for years, and I pay a yearly licensing fees to be a licensed electrical contractor in my jurisdiction(s). The plumbers do the same, and I would like to see that the work is installed by a professional of the related trade. This happens sometimes and sometimes not, I have learned to tolerate it, as there is not too much I can do about it. Bill' pictures say alot about what happens when someone unqualified does the work.

Pierre

 

[bennie]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Excuse me, I am not attempting to stir the pot. This topic is not about installing electrical systems, it is about connecting an appliance

Safety is no problem, a plumber that can not reconnect a heater or garbage disposal should not be a plumber.

I am firmly against laws that are intended to "make work".

Asking me to reconnect a water heater, when others are fully capable, is like asking Rembrandt to paint a barn.

 

[tonyi]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Originally posted by roger:
Tony, are you serious?

I'm serious as a heart attack.

I've fixed many WH connections done by master plumbers where the wires weren't twisted together at all and just fell right apart when the nut was removed. Its something I routinely take a peek at now whenever I see an electric water heater.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Tony: Aren't the wires supposed to come apart when you aremove a wire nut? Why else would you remove one?

The purpose of a wire nut is to have a connection when the nut is on the wires, not off of them!

I like to pre-twist as well, but I challenge you to come up with a requirement for it. Start it in a new thread if you like.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Most plumbers probably will do a fine job.But some might not.Part of licensing is to have INSURANCE to cover a bad job.Does the plumbers insurance cover him doing electrical, don't think so.What about wire protection ,we require flex over that romex, what if it's to short to reach the new heater?