WATER HEATERS

[bthielen]

Re: WATER HEATERS

There is a license for "handyman" which allows a person to do anything as long as the price, labor and materials, does not exceed X dollars ($1,000?).

This is frightening! Could get around this restriction by breaking a job into $1,000.00 increments. How does the $ amount have anything to do with how safely the work is done?

Bob

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Tony, how do you know this was done by plumbers and not an electrician?

Then, were the water heaters not working, or do you just have time to check water heaters when you walk in to a building.

In 30 years I can't think of one water heater service call that was due to a wire nut, and I know many were installed by non electrical people.

Like Ryan says, if I were taking a wire nut off, it would be for seperating the wires. Why do you take them off?

Roger

 

[bennie]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Jim: Now I will stir the pot; The plumber will extend the flex with copper pipe

Seriously, flex is not approved for physical protection of wiring either.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

BENNIE
Just what would you use.Sure can't have just romex going to it.We use carflex or flex never seen anything else,except back in the days that we used cord and plug( kinda costly)

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Jim,

Sure can't have just romex going to it.

why not?

This protection is only where "necessary".

Roger

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Safety is no problem, a plumber that can not reconnect a heater or garbage disposal should not be a plumber.

I am firmly against laws that are intended to "make work".

Bennie,

I've never heard an Inspector, or former Inspector make a statement like "Safety is no problem". Your remarks confuse me sometimes. The second part of that sentence may be true, but are related Electrical codes, theory, methods and materials covered in the Plumbing curriculum, or on the Examinations?

I don't see anyone advocating any Laws to "make work" in this thread.

Bill

[ December 19, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Most plumbers probably will do a fine job.But some might not.Part of licensing is to have INSURANCE to cover a bad job.Does the plumbers insurance cover him doing electrical, don't think so

Jim,

I agree with the jist of this and have wondered about the insurance aspect of this too.

Does anyone know for a fact if Electrical work is not within the scope of what is covered by the License does the Insurance policy have to pay a claim on it?

Bill

 

[bennie]

Re: WATER HEATERS

What is so difficult about reconnecting a water heater? I say that safety is not an issue, what can happen? So a wire nut comes off, the heater will shut down not kill anyone. What if a line to ground fault develops? The breaker will trip or the fault will burn clear. This is the true facts of electricity.

For complete safety from effects of electricity, remove all wiring and supply to the premises.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Lets see
wire nut falls off
wire touches frame
water heater had no ground and pipe wasn't bonded to ground
Home owner is in shower or tub touches valve to adjust water
We gather here today to...........................

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

I have had service calls that owner said they getting shocked in the tub.
Outside i find broken clamp behind hose bib.
Things like this DO HAPPEN

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

How many times in Tampa lately?

Out of all of these instances how many are the fault of an electrical contractor?

How many are the fault of an electrical contractor letting an untrained apprentice do the work? You don't invest much into training these apprentices do you? I'll ask again, do you pay for their school.


Roger

[ December 19, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[bill addiss]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Bennie,

I give up, I don't know what I was thinking.

I have to think that the rules should be followed because that's the only way that has a chance of working.

We don't seem to be having the same discussion.

Bill

 

[electricman2]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Water heaters installed in a crawl space would need only NM unless the length was excessive.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

RODGER
Your right on target, the installers often are green helpers and at best there is a card carrying journeyman on the job.They are in a rush to get it done because it was bid too low to take time to check everything.If a journeyman was require for every helper maybe things could turn out better.Often i am trying to oversee 4 or 5 guys work.
As to how often in TAMPA , once is 1 time too many.There probably are hundreds broken or lose as im typing.They do nothing unless there is a fault.Then and only then do they even know about it.
If were going to trust the plumber to do electric why don't we just allow a handyman to do the whole job.What could possibly be safer.

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Well Jim, I think it would make sense to educate these apprentices instead of requiring them to buy 4 or 5 hundred dollars in hand tools, don't you?

I guess the answer to my question as to investing in apprentices schooling is no, and riding them is the way to get things done.

As far as card holders in paradise, they are few and far between. Anybody can show up, represent themself as king of electricians, and be on the job that same day.

Fl doesn't require much in qualification time as far as licensing either.

I have never suggested a plumber do any electrical work in this thread either.

Now as far as doing all trades work, I do know CA allows GC's with a C-10 license to perform all work on a dwelling.

Maybe some one from CA can chime in on this, and fill in the details.

Roger

 

[tonyi]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Tony: Aren't the wires supposed to come apart when you aremove a wire nut? Why else would you remove one?

The purpose of a wire nut is to have a connection when the nut is on the wires, not off of them!

I like to pre-twist as well, but I challenge you to come up with a requirement for it. Start it in a new thread if you like.

Look at the installation instructions that come with say the Ideal wire nuts. There is a drawing on the box of what a connection should look like when complete, and instructions on proper strip length. I'm not talking about pre-twisting, I'm talking about zero twisting where the nut hasn't even been used to produce any twists as its applied. If you don't pretwist, or use the nut to produce any twists as its applied, then you do NOT have a mechanically sound connection and are relying on only the nuts spiral spring for contact. What they've done is put two wires together then give the nut about one 360 degree rotation.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Training at company exspence.Your joking right ?
We pay for school and then they leave and go work for someone else that gives them 50 cents more.Makes more since to just hire guys that been trained.

 

[iwire]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Originally posted by jimwalker:
We pay for school and then they leave and go work for someone else that gives them 50 cents more.Makes more since to just hire guys that been trained.

Great way to look at it.

 

[tonyi]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Originally posted by roger:
Tony, how do you know this was done by plumbers and not an electrician?

Then, were the water heaters not working, or do you just have time to check water heaters when you walk in to a building.

In 30 years I can't think of one water heater service call that was due to a wire nut, and I know many were installed by non electrical people.

Like Ryan says, if I were taking a wire nut off, it would be for seperating the wires. Why do you take them off?

Roger

How do I know it was plumbers? Because it was my cousin and others in the company he was working for when I hired them.

No need to take them off to check. A visual inspection and slight back pressure of a few inch/lbs on a nut is all that's needed. If the wire nut falls right off and the wires spring apart, then it was a lousy connection.

Maybe you've been lucky, I find bad splices everywhere. Relying on the spiral spring in a nut to be a part of the electrical integrity of a splice invites problems...like Don's dreaded glowing connections.

 

[roger]

Re: WATER HEATERS

Bob we offer similar. We also give a pretty substantial raise upon finishing and acquiring their Jmans card. This is good for them and us seeing how we do have a one to one ratio requirement.

Jim, maybe you ought to rethink what you said here.

Member
Member # 13241

posted December 16, 2003 07:26 PM
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I know I'm hard on men, but I'm after performance and dollars, seen to many helpers come and go because they find the trade hard work on there way up.Also seen some green kid's do just fine and they become our electricians of tomorrow

If you tried to teach them the trade and treated them with respect, you may be surprised at their allegiance to you.

Roger