Water line bonding vs GEC

jaggedben said:
And yet it seems like most people still think it says something it doesn't say.
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After reading 3 more times,I agree with you. 250.50A
“(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.” 250.68 only addresses extending other ground rods.
 
The parent text in 250.68 says that the GEC must connect to the electrode. Since the water pipe electrode stops at the point where the pipe emerges from the earth, the parent text requires that the GEC be connected to the water pipe exterior to the building.
(C)(1) simply permits the first 5' of the interior water pipe to extend the electrode so that the GEC connection can be made inside the building.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The parent text in 250.68 says that the GEC must connect to the electrode. Since the water pipe electrode stops at the point where the pipe emerges from the earth, the parent text requires that the GEC be connected to the water pipe exterior to the building.
(C)(1) simply permits the first 5' of the interior water pipe to extend the electrode so that the GEC connection can be made inside the building.
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This is how I always understood it. The wording of this section is pretty horrible and could use some work.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The parent text in 250.68 says that the GEC must connect to the electrode. Since the water pipe electrode stops at the point where the pipe emerges from the earth, the parent text requires that the GEC be connected to the water pipe exterior to the building.
(C)(1) simply permits the first 5' of the interior water pipe to extend the electrode so that the GEC connection can be made inside the building.
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What actual text are you citing? I see nothing in 250.68 that says or even implies what you are saying. And to me the language in 250.52(A)(1) contradicts the argument you are making rather directly. It even says you can bond around insulated joints to extend the pipe as electrode to the GEC connection point.

(Also around here we have many water pipes that come up into the interior of the building and therefore have no accessible point to connect a grounding electrode on the exterior.)
 
jaggedben said:
What actual text are you citing? I see nothing in 250.68 that says or even implies what you are saying. And to me the language in 250.52(A)(1) contradicts the argument you are making rather directly. It even says you can bond around insulated joints to extend the pipe as electrode to the GEC connection point.

(Also around here we have many water pipes that come up into the interior of the building and therefore have no accessible point to connect a grounding electrode on the exterior.)
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The title of the section:
250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.

In all cases, the rules in 250.68(C) provide for the connection of the GEC to something that is not actually a grounding electrode.

Nothing in 250.52(A)(1) contradicts anything I have said, as that section only applies to the portion of the pipe that is the actual electrode...that is the underground portion. The bonding in that section is for the locations where the meter is exterior to the building in the underground water pipe.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The title of the section:
250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.
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How does that make your point? I don't believe it does.

In all cases, the rules in 250.68(C) provide for the connection of the GEC to something that is not actually a grounding electrode.
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Huh? The section title you quoted above says the exact opposite. "GEC ... Connection to Grounding Electrodes.

Nothing in 250.52(A)(1) contradicts anything I have said, as that section only applies to the portion of the pipe that is the actual electrode...that is the underground portion. The bonding in that section is for the locations where the meter is exterior to the building in the underground water pipe.
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Nothing in 250.68 or 250.52(A)(1) or the article 100 definition of a Grounding Electrode supports your assertion that only the below-ground portion of the grounding electrode object counts as the grounding electrode. That seems to be the premise your relying on, and unless you've got a different section to cite, the code doesn't actually say that.

When I buy an 8ft ground rod it comes to me 8'-3" so I can drive it 8ft in the earth and still have 3" accessible (a requirement) for my GEC connection. Is my connection at the top 3" above ground to something other than the electrode? C'mon man. Hundreds of ground rods inspected by the same guys who made me run those water pipe GECs 3/4 of the way around the house, and none of them ever contended something like that.

Mind you, I don't think the common interpretation would necessarily be a bad rule. But the code doesn't actually say it.
 
This might help to explain.
 

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Maybe this is what you are looking for.
 

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mtnelect said:
Maybe this is what you are looking for.
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That doesn't help since it is referring to extending other grounding electrodes TO the water pipe, not extending the grounding electrode conductor to the service bond point.
don_resqcapt19 said:
The parent text in 250.68 says that the GEC must connect to the electrode. Since the water pipe electrode stops at the point where the pipe emerges from the earth, the parent text requires that the GEC be connected to the water pipe exterior to the building.
(C)(1) simply permits the first 5' of the interior water pipe to extend the electrode so that the GEC connection can be made inside the building.
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Where does this say, that the electrode stops at the ground, and if it did, then the connection would need to be made before it emerged from the ground, not within 5 feet of building entrance. The code I cited in post 42 contradicts what you are saying. Since the title of that section is Grounding Electrodes and Grounding Electrode Conductor. I concede that the intent may be for the connection to be made within 5 feet, but that isn't what the text says. And no amount of twisting can actually make it say that. You must concede that 250.68(C)(1) is clearly worded to be discussing the extension of the connection to OTHER grounding electrodes. If the intent is to require connection of the Grounding electrode conductor from the water pipe, a paragraph specifically stating that would be required. I always thought the 5' rule was valid. I can see that it isn't.
 
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jaggedben said:
You can run a separate GEC to the service neutral or run a bonding jumper to another electrode. Either is allowed.
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One word of caution though. When bonding one Grounding Electrode to another you have to be certain that all of the Grounding Electrode Conductors between all of those bonded electrodes are large enough for the electrodes in that pathway. If you first electrode were 2 driven rods that are bonded together to form a single Grounding Electrode the largest Grounding Electrode required is #6 copper, You cannot use an aluminum conductor as the GEC to driven rods because you cannot use aluminum under or within 18 inches above the ground surface. So if you were to use the driven rod electrode conductor as a place to connect the GEC to the Underground Metal Water pipe you would have to use a #4 AWG copper to the driven rod electrode and on to the underground metal water pipe.

Tom Horne
 
In other words, the weakest link in the pathway must be sized for the electrode(s) with the greatest requirements connected through it.
 
kwired said:
Back then and until about mid 1990's it was acceptable to land GEC to a metal water pipe on any convenient location on the piping. With non metallic piping becoming more popular by the 90's they changed the rule to within 5 feet or entry for a qualifying underground pipe. You always needed bonding jumper around things like water meters or other items that may be frequently opened or naturally were isolating in nature.

You still can bond interior piping to any convenient location - say you had non metallic for incoming but have metallic piping through the house.
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You only need to bond around non conductive parts that are in the Grounding Electrode pathway between the Grounding Electrode Conductor's point of connection to the water piping and it's underground portion. If there is a water meter that is not mounted on a meter mount, A pressure reducing valve that has insulating connection ports, or any other thing that breaks the continuity of the water pipe but are not between the point of connection of the EGC and the underground portion of the piping do not have to be bonded around. You always have to bond around an electric water heater in a metallic piping system because both the cold water supply connection and the hot water discharge connections are piping that are likely to become energized.

Tom Horne
 
hornetd said:
You only need to bond around non conductive parts that are in the Grounding Electrode pathway between the Grounding Electrode Conductor's point of connection to the water piping and it's underground portion. If there is a water meter that is not mounted on a meter mount, A pressure reducing valve that has insulating connection ports, or any other thing that breaks the continuity of the water pipe but are not between the point of connection of the EGC and the underground portion of the piping do not have to be bonded around. You always have to bond around an electric water heater in a metallic piping system because both the cold water supply connection and the hot water discharge connections are piping that are likely to become energized.

Tom Horne
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So a metallic piping system going to and leaving from needs a jumper at the water heater?
 
ptonsparky said:
So a metallic piping system going to and leaving from needs a jumper at the water heater?
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Not in my house. With the mixing valves in two showers, the double shut off at the washing machine and the mixing faucets in the utility sink, my hot and cold water piping are not separated.
 
I guess they think the water heating doesn't bond it, or that it needs to stay bonded when the water heater is temporarily removed for replacement.
 
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